When is it better to ask forgiveness instead of permission?

[Diga]

Well said Randy!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... pulling objects from the ground that no-one else cares about, ....

This is reality ^ ^

 

[jimther]

Originally Posted by Smooth23 View post
Farm field who’s owner is nowhere to be found, presumed owned by a development company and leased usage to a farm. Crops are down. Just go until asked to leave? Avoid?

Short answer: Go back and re-read a copy of the Metal Detectorists Code of Ethics. Assuming you have read it once before.

Well that’s not really the question here, is it? If you don’t have a valuable input, perhaps don’t input at all.

Hmmm... Re-reading your original post, IMO, it all boils down to "how to treat a property that is private, versus public" and my response about the Code of Ethics certainly DOES apply. Pretty much, without exception, any copy of a detectorists CODE of ETHICS you can find will in some form or other, say "Do not trespass; always respect private property and do no metal detecting without the owner's permission"

By the way, that last line is the first one listed in the Code of Ethics from of one of the detectors you use, the Minelab web site, https://www.minelab.com/support/customer-care-charter/code-of-ethics.

If you still believe my input had no value, please explain how your original post was NOT about detecting on private property without permission.

 

[MTtrashdigger]

If it's not fenced off and there are no signs stating private property keep out, I'd be on it in a second. Go for it until someone of authority or ownership says otherwise.

Bill

Almost every front yard in every historic district of every town in America is unfenced and lacks " keep out" signage. Is it Ok to metal detect those lawns until you are kicked off of them? Whether a piece of property is owned by a corporate entity, a 5th generation family farming operation or a real estate developer, private property is private property and entering private property without permission is, by definition, trespassing.
By your logic, unless your own front yard is fenced and signed, squatters are perfectly within their rights to camp out on your lawn until you tell them to move on. Or did I miss your point altogether?

 

[Xxray]

Almost every front yard in every historic district of every town in America is unfenced and lacks " keep out" signage. Is it Ok to metal detect those lawns until you are kicked off of them? Whether a piece of property is owned by a corporate entity, a 5th generation family farming operation or a real estate developer, private property is private property and entering private property without permission is, by definition, trespassing.
By your logic, unless your own front yard is fenced and signed, squatters are perfectly within their rights to camp out on your lawn until you tell them to move on. Or did I miss your point altogether?

OP specifically asked about a "farm field" not "front yard" or "grave yard", you are taking this into the realm of the ludicrous.

Have you ever gone over the speed limit, anytime, in your entire life ?

 

[FliesOnly]

F/O : Do you think I'm making this up ?? It's wording like I linked to you that DOES INDEED give some md'rs fits.

The park rules specifically address metal detecting and clearly state that it is allowed, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

And they fret themselves silly wondering if they can detect.

Maybe they should read the park rules.

The only thing your expanded copy & paste does, is simply further sink you. So I fail to see the point.

The portion I included spells out that they DO NOT want you to remove or deface, so I fail to see how this "further sinks me".

My only point was to show that you can not "remove" things. And for that, the portion of the quote I gave was sufficient.

Nonsense, context is important. You can remove things, just not the things included on their list.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but you're of the opinion that we should have permission for city parks, wherever we go. Right ?

I guess I will correct you. I am of the opinion that one should check the Park Rules. Some Parks allow metal detecting, some do not.


But again, I want to emphasize that this discussion is about metal detecting on private property. You keep ignoring this and I'm not sure why.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Almost every front yard in every historic district of every town in America is unfenced and lacks " keep out" signage. Is it Ok to metal detect those lawns until you are kicked off of them? ...

OP specifically asked about a "farm field" not "front yard" or "grave yard", you are taking this into the realm of the ludicrous.

....

It is inevitable , when this subject comes up, that someone will point out that : So too are people's front yards *also* "un-fenced" and "un-signed".

At what point does common sense enter into this question ? I mean, .... NO ONE is going to dispute the difference between "someone's front yard" vs "middle of nowhere".

For example : Would you take this shortcut or not ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... one should check the Park Rules. Some Parks allow metal detecting, some do not. ....

And if it is "silent on the subject", then presto: Not disallowed. Right ? And we do NOT construe verbiage about "remove" and "alter/deface" to mean we need permission or clarification. Right ?

As for the rest of the discussion F/O : Ok, sure. I'll grant you the utmost zeal about not stepping foot off the sidewalk anywhere. Be my guest ! You admittedly have the "high road" to which : I can't dispute. For example : You would not take the shortcut path in my previous / above picture ^ ^ . Right ? To which I say : Bravo. I wish I were as good of-a-man as you are. But I'm probably one of those evil people who walked that path enough to have created it

 

[FliesOnly]

I think we can all agree that his opinion is well thought out and based on decades of experience.

So let me see if I understand you correctly. Tom pretty much "threatened" to contact the Parks I sometimes detect in, in a feeble attempt to demonstrate that I'm not allowed to remove things from the park. To "prove" his point, he apparently went online and looked up the rules for the park I told him about after he asked for that information...and posted this: 97.15 Park Property. No person in a park shall (A) Buildings and other property. (1) Disfiguration and removal. ...... and that was all he posted, claiming that apparently it says that I can't remove objects from the park. And you consider that a well thought out opinion?
But of course my response, which actually includes the entirety of that particular rule showing that Tom was being, at best, disingenuous, is just me being "pugilistic", right?

By F/O's logic, it seems to appear illegal to remove broken glass, beer cans and similar objects (a.k.a "trash"), from a park or other site.

How do you come to this conclusion? Nothing I've said would lead anyone seriously following this conversation to come to that conclusion.
And again...let's keep in mind that I have CLEARLY been talking about the legalities of removing objects from private property. Tom is the guy who keeps bringng up public parks.

Of course it is much more nuanced. There are many shades of grey. Is a house in a development on a half acre lot with 2 kids and 2 cars the same as a random field owned by a 501(c)(3) and managed by a board of directors the same, the latter with a mission statement to provide for public recreation (including hunting)? Both are private property.

So...don't detect on either without permission. It really is that simple.

Remember, removing a deer you just shot takes much more capital from the collective than removing a coin-sized object. More nuance.

What are you talking about? But I am curious...are we talking about a deer you shot in a County Park...cuz I'm pretty sure that's illegal. Are we talking about a deer you shot on private property without having permission? Cuz I'm pretty sure that's illegal too. Are we talking about a deer you shot on property where you have permission to hunt, but the deer went onto to someone else property (for which you do not have permission) before it died..cuz retrieving that deer without obtaining permission is also illegal.

Why are you and Tom trying to make this so difficult. It's simple. You, by law, need to obtain permission to metal detect on someone else property. Are there some exceptions? I'm not a lawyer so I can't say one way or the other, but my guess would be that if there are any, those exceptions would be pretty rare and quite specific.

Of course, its illegal for me to remove any shell casings I find after the deer is shot, by F/O's logic, as I understand it.

I love how you guys attest false statements and conclusions to me and act like you've made a valid point.

Its unclear what F/O is trying to accomplish here with his pugilistic argument

How am I being pugilistic? I haven't made any threats of violence at all.
Look, my point from my very first response in this thread has been quite clear., which is to get people to stop trespassing and acting like it's OK just as long as you think you can get away with it. Excuse me for actually giving a cr@p about how others may view us and our hobby.

Perhaps that will become clear later, but arguing the details of Isabella County, Michigan, does not seem to be a path there for most readers, including, perhaps, the OP.

I agree. But then, I wasn't the one who brought it up in the first place. That was done by the guy you think provides well thought out opinions, so maybe ask him.

tho I'll admit that if I am ever in Isabella County again, I may know what to do

Wasn't it nice and informative of me to provide the entire rule, not just a portion of it, so that now you know it's perfectly legal for you to metal detect in our Country Parks, and that you can legally remove the objects you find (as long as you follow the park rules)? You're welcome.

The bottom line is this: Use common sense and judgment, and do what feels right...

I would get rid of the last part and instead say something like: "and don't knowingly break any laws"...but that's just me.

This applies both to pulling objects from the ground that no-one else cares about, while remediating any damage to the turf, as well as attacking others on forums.

So...it's OK to steal objects from someone else's property, that's what you're saying? Simply saying "that no-one else cares about" is not really legal justification.
Look, I agree, that if someone trespasses and finds a few pennies and maybe an old dime or two, no one would probably really care. But what if "he" finds and very valuable ring, or necklace? What then? Is it still OK to keep those objects? What if he finds something that seems trivial, but may have huge sentimental value to the owner of the property, if he were to see it?
Why not just stay off of property for which you have no permission? Isn't that the best course of action?

 

[FliesOnly]

And if it is "silent on the subject", then presto: Not disallowed. Right ?

Correct...it's a public park, so if they don't have a rule against it, then there's no reason to believe that it is not allowed.

And we do NOT construe verbiage about "remove" and "alter/deface" to mean we need permission or clarification. Right ?

If metal detecting is not forbidden, then there's no reason to believe that you cannot remove what you find (as long as it's not on the list of items you can't remove...like picnic tables and toilets).

As for the rest of the discussion F/O : Ok, sure. I'll grant you the utmost zeal about not stepping foot off the sidewalk anywhere. Be my guest ! You admittedly have the "high road" to which : I can't dispute. For example : You would not take the shortcut path in my previous / above picture ^ ^ . Right ?

If I knew that the shortcut was across private property, there's a pretty good chance that I would not take it. If, however, one day I encountered the owner and he said something along the lines of: "No worries, everybody cuts across there", then I would probably start using it after that.
I find it disheartening that for some reason or another, my point of view is taken to be the silly, incorrect assessment of the situation.

To which I say : Bravo. I wish I were as good of-a-man as you are. But I'm probably one of those evil people who walked that path enough to have created it

Maybe you should strive to be a better person from here on out.

 

[FliesOnly]

OP specifically asked about a "farm field" not "front yard" or "grave yard", you are taking this into the realm of the ludicrous.

So let's say you find a valuable gold ring, or a diamond necklace. Do you get to keep it since you found it in a farm field and not someones front yard?

Have you ever gone over the speed limit, anytime, in your entire life ?

Yes. And guess what...it's illegal to go over the speed limit, even if you do it out in the boonies.

But let's take your analogy to it's logical conclusion as it relates the this discussion.
What if, during your act of speeding...even way out in the boonies...you cause harm to someone else. Do you just leave the scene?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... If I knew that the shortcut was across private property, there's a pretty good chance that I would not take it. ...

AAAaaahhh, so it's only a "pretty good chance". Not a "100% chance". I would have thought there'd be a 100% chance.

.... I find it disheartening that for some reason or another, my point of view is taken to be the silly, incorrect assessment of the situation.....

Technically, there's no reason why it's an "incorrect assessment". You're trespassing, you didn't have permission, and you damaged & altered the trail (as evidenced by no grass growing there). So there's a lot of similarities, that *technically* are the same. Heck, I bet you'd even stoop over and pick up a $5 bill if you saw it there on the trail.

But let's just cut to the chase F/O : I can not dispute that no one should take that trail. I can not dispute that if you found a $5 on the trail, that you are not entitled to pick it up (aka stealing). I do not fault anyone for stepping over the $5, and/or walking around the street instead of taking the trail. I say : More power to them. Technically, you are 100% correct.

 

[Xxray]

So let's say you find a valuable gold ring, or a diamond necklace. Do you get to keep it since you found it in a farm field and not someones front yard?

I'd keep it in all cases except:
* Had an agreement otherwise
* Was feasible to return it to its owner, class ring ect

Every ring I have out of 100's has a story to it, has a former rightful owner who lamented the loss. Shall I have just admired them then reburied ? [Majority of rings I have found have been on the beach or tot lots]

Yes. And guess what...it's illegal to go over the speed limit, even if you do it out in the boonies.

Did I say it wasn't illegal ?
No. Point being, you apparently are a selective absolutist, cherry picking which laws to follow, or not.

But let's take your analogy to it's logical conclusion as it relates the this discussion.
What if, during your act of speeding...even way out in the boonies...you cause harm to someone else. Do you just leave the scene?

I seriously doubt I would, highly rhetorical questions are impossible to accurately answer, like asking "How do you think you would have done at Iwo Jima ?" You could fancy you would have been a hero, or a coward, and no possible way to quantify or prove either.

I'll bite, what is your attempted point ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I'd keep it in all cases except:....

Xxray, this is a loosing battle. On the one hand, we *all* recognize the seated quarter or the ring, on someone's night-stand, in their house, as a certain class of "thing". There's not a single person here that doesn't recognize that as stealing, if you took the quarter or the ring off Farmer Bob's night-stand.

Yet a quarter or a ring in a farm field or found on the short-cut path in my pix : Everyone here recognizes that there's a difference.

Now is there a TECHNICAL DIFFERENCE ? No ! Even though farmer bob has utterly no idea the seated quarter or the ring, was on his short-cut path, yet .... it doesn't change the *technical* fact that it's stealing.

Yet at the same time, we know there's some difference between removing the seated quarter from farmer Bob's night-stand. I can't put my finger on what difference that is, but .... even if I could, it doesn't withstand the "technical" test.

So I say : More power to people like F/O. The world would be a better place if no one stepped off the sidewalks. I get it.

 

[FliesOnly]

I'd keep it in all cases except:
* Had an agreement otherwise
* Was feasible to return it to its owner, class ring ect

So you would knowingly trespass, detect, and then keep items that you find?
Yet, somehow or another, I'm the "bad guy" in this discussion.

Every ring I have out of 100's has a story to it, has a former rightful owner who lamented the loss. Shall I have just admired them then reburied ? [Majority of rings I have found have been on the beach or tot lots]

OK...but we're not talking about finding items where you have permission, or are allowed to metal detect. Well, I'm not anyway...can't say for sure what everyone else is talking about.

Did I say it wasn't illegal ?

You did not, so I was curious why you brought it up to begin with.

No. Point being, you apparently are a selective absolutist, cherry picking which laws to follow, or not.

How so...please explain how I'm cherry picking laws to follow. Oh wait, I'm a selective absolutist because I occasionally break the speed limit, right? Guilty as charged. Shoot, I guess it's OK to trespass and keep items that I find then. Wow, thanks for clearing that up for me. I mean, the two are crimes are obviously synonymous, so it's a logical conclusion to reach, right?

I seriously doubt I would, highly rhetorical questions are impossible to accurately answer, like asking "How do you think you would have done at Iwo Jima ?"

Look, you're the one who posted the analogy of asking it "he" ever broke the speed limit. I was merely trying to show that you didn't carry your analogy far enough for it to actually apply to the discussion at hand.
So lets take this back to the discussion at hand. Do you think it's OK to detect on private property on which you do not have permission, and keep items that you find? No more hypotheticals...let's go right back to the original point of this entire thread.

I'll bite, what is your attempted point ?

Have you been following this thread at all? OP asked if people felt it was OK to metal detect on private property where they do not have permission. From my very first reply, I've been trying to show that it's not the right thing to do.

What I wish people would stop doing is acting like what I say about private property also pertains to public property...like County parks. I've been clear about the differences between the two, yet I've been accused of essentially lying to a Park Manager, claiming it's illegal to remove trash from a Park, not being allowed to pick up shell casings if I shoot a deer, and a variety of other stupid things.

So lets stop already with ridiculous comparisons and false accusations about what I claim, and get back to the question at hand. It's quite simple. Is it OK to detect on private property for which you do not have permission, and keep the items that you find?

 

[FliesOnly]

AAAaaahhh, so it's only a "pretty good chance". Not a "100% chance". I would have thought there'd be a 100% chance.

Why would you think that? Again, if I knew for a fact that it went across private property, the chances are pretty good that I would not trespass. I cannot speak for every possible scenario or situation that may arise though, so I cannot say with 100% complete certainty. What I can say with 100% complete certainty is that I would never knowingly metal detect on private property.

Heck, I bet you'd even stoop over and pick up a $5 bill if you saw it there on the trail.

Yep, I would. I'd also look to see if maybe there was someone right there in close vicinity with their wallet out or their purse open that may have dropped the $5, and ask them if it was theirs.
Regardless, are you trying to say that that's equivalent to metal detecting on that shortcut and keeping a valuable ring that you find?

But let's just cut to the chase F/O : I can not dispute that no one should take that trail. I can not dispute that if you found a $5 on the trail, that you are not entitled to pick it up (aka stealing). I do not fault anyone for stepping over the $5, and/or walking around the street instead of taking the trail. I say : More power to them. Technically, you are 100% correct.

So...are you then saying that it's OK to detect on private property on which you do not have permission, and to keep items that you find?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....


So...are you then saying that it's OK to detect on private property on which you do not have permission, and to keep items that you find?

On a percentage scale, I would give it the same percentage as you would, to A) take that shortcut trail, and B) pick up the $5 bill and keep it.

I realize you do NOT see the above scenario as the same as md'ing ^^ I happen to think that no one cares one-iota about taking that shortcut trail, and that no one would care one iota if you or I picked up the $5. To me, *that* is the test of things. And the same "test" would apply to metal detecting that trail : If no one cared, then by golly ..... no one cared.

BUT I REALIZE THIS DOESN'T PASS the technical legal test ! In the same way that *technically* you should not take the path, you should not pick up the $5, etc.... To which I say again : The world would be a better place if no one stepped off the sidewalks. I don't disagree. You are to be commended. I'm just trying to sort "realistic" vs "technical".

 

[Xxray]

So lets take this back to the discussion at hand. Do you think it's OK to detect on private property on which you do not have permission, and keep items that you find? No more hypotheticals...let's go right back to the original point of this entire thread.

Discussion at hand, original point, Ok, I think I got it, let me prep myself and think ,,, 1 ,,, 2,,,, 3, here goes:
A field in the middle of nowhere, hell yeah.
But no historic front lawns.
Hope this helps.

Have you been following this thread at all?

You seem to be a pretty frantic guy and genuinely like to bicker, I am neither and honestly don't have alot of free time so no, have not followed every word in this thread, especially yours.
Don't mean to sound snarky but thats the way you are coming across to me, but be that as it may, I don't see why you are so anal about detecting rules then turn around and admit you break others - That is sheer hypocrisy.

 

[FliesOnly]

Discussion at hand, original point, Ok, I think I got it, let me prep myself and think ,,, 1 ,,, 2,,,, 3, here goes:
A field in the middle of nowhere, hell yeah.
But no historic front lawns.
Hope this helps.

It does help a little, thanks for the clarification. I guess we just have a different set of values.

You seem to be a pretty frantic guy and genuinely like to bicker...

My first post was short and to the point. When others put words into my mouth, I do my best to try to correct their errors. Accusations are easy, explanations and clarifications take more effort.

I am neither and honestly don't have alot of free time so no, have not followed every word in this thread, especially yours.

Thanks for admitting as much.

Don't mean to sound snarky but thats the way you are coming across to me, but be that as it may, I don't see why you are so anal about detecting rules then turn around and admit you break others -

Because this is a forum about metal detecting and someone asked a question, which I answered.

That is sheer hypocrisy.

Ummmmmm, not really. It would be a hypocritical of me to say that you shouldn't speed, but then admit that I have no problems with speeding myself. It would be hypocritical of me to say that no one should knowingly metal detect on private property without permission, but then admit that I metal detect on private property without permission all the time.

And to be clear, comparing the two situations as if they're somehow equivalent is a bit of a stretch. Speeding is [most often] simply a moving violation and is not a crime. Stealing, on the other hand, is a criminal offense that results in a criminal record.

 

[FliesOnly]

On a percentage scale, I would give it the same percentage as you would, to A) take that shortcut trail, and B) pick up the $5 bill and keep it.
I realize you do NOT see the above scenario as the same as md'ing ^^

Because they are NOT the same thing. First off, in order for cutting the corner by using that trail to actually be considered as a trespass, it would either need to be posted as such (i.e. "Private Property, No Trespassing"), or the owner would have to actually tell me to not use the path. And once you've been asked to leave the property (again, assuming that it's not posted as being private property), you have to be allowed to do so before what you're doing can be considered as a trespass.

I happen to think that no one cares one-iota about taking that shortcut trail, and that no one would care one iota if you or I picked up the $5.

Since the property is not posted, despite an obvious trail being used by people , I think it's a fair assessment on your part to assume that the owner doesn't really care. If that owner does not care, then it's not actually considered as trespassing to use the trail.
The $5, on the other hand, is a bit more tricky.

To me, *that* is the test of things. And the same "test" would apply to metal detecting that trail : If no one cared, then by golly ..... no one cared.

If we're only referring to that specific trail (i.e. not posted as private property, and also assuming that the owner is aware of the path and seemingly doesn't care) then maybe you might have a slim chance of detecting on it without any repercussions. However, what if you found a buried glass jar filled with gold coins from the 1800s? Do you think the owner would not care if you kept them? Could you legally keep them? After all, finding a five-dollar bill on the surface of the ground is NOT the same things as digging a hole and finding something of value.

BUT I REALIZE THIS DOESN'T PASS the technical legal test ![/B] In the same way that *technically* you should not take the path, you should not pick up the $5, etc.... To which I say again : The world would be a better place if no one stepped off the sidewalks. I don't disagree.

I think one has to look at each scenario separately and stop trying to conflate totally different situations as if they're equivalent.

I'm just trying to sort "realistic" vs "technical".

But you're not being realistic. Cutting a corner by using a well worn and obvious trail is no where near the same thing as metal detecting on private property and keeping what you find...even if that property is out in the boonies. One of them is likely not even a crime, while the other is most definitely a criminal offense...I hope you can figure out which is which.