When is it better to ask forgiveness instead of permission?

[Tom_in_CA]

.... You then say you talked to "Tom", who gave you the okay to metal detect there ....

This reminds me of a funny story that happened here locally : Some out of town friends were rolling through my part of the state, and wanted to do some detecting somewhere. As the day approached for their arrival, I dreamed up 2 locations I could take my buddies :

1) a Farm field where an adobe site (like a cellar hole) had been. As it turns out, I have permission for this spot.

2) an old town demolition site in nearby town, that I had *just* seen a newspaper piece about a building that was just torn down.

When my buddies showed up at the appointed time though, a work issue at my company arose, that was going to delay me by an hour or two. So I told them to start without me, and that I'd catch up with them. I scripted them on the 2 objectives, and added "If anyone says anything to you, tell them we have permission" (and I was referring to the farm field).

When I finally got out the door a few hours later, I arrived at the farm field to find that it was chalked full of crop. Not fallow ground as I had hoped. So I figured my friends had moved on to the 2nd site, where an old town demolition was going down.

When I caught up with my friends there, they said that some guy had tried to kick them out. But that they had told the person : "We have permission". And when the contractor snapped : "SAYS WHO ??", they merely replied : "Tom got permission" (or "Tom said" or something like that). Because my friends were confusing the farm field, with the demolition site. (I had no such permission for the demolition site).

When the contractor heard them say "Tom said", he shrugged his shoulders and told them to make sure and lock the gate on the way out.

Imagine my friend's surprise when I told them : "No, I have no idea who you talked to, and no, I don't have permission here". Oh well, we detected the rest of the day in the demo. site, and no one came out and said so much as "boo" to us .

Maybe the contractor knew someone named "Tom" ? Or maybe to merely say "We have permission" was enough for him to shrug his shoulders and assume we knew what we were doing ? I dunno. We got a good laugh out of that !

 

[stetam]

You can do whatever mental gymnastics you want to convince yourself it's okay to trespass, and you will find people on here who will tell you to go for it, if that's what you're looking for. But your decisions are representing everyone in the hobby, not just yourself.

Detecting wherever you want because "no one will care" is not helping our hobby's image. I would say you should do some more research and find land you can actually get permission for. Property rights exist for a reason, but it's up to you whether to respect them.

I will agree with Reelfoot Relics here and say that I have gotten permission for private property before, only to encounter someone who walked right on with no care in the world. Not a great experience.

My only input is this; Look up the word, "trespass", and carefully read the definition.

Roger

Agreed. If you don't have expressed permission on private property, stay off.

Steve

 

[CallMeGrey]

Farm field who’s owner is nowhere to be found, presumed owned by a development company and leased usage to a farm. Crops are down. Just go until asked to leave? Avoid?

I would ask nearby farmers to find out who is using it or who owns it. Neighbors usually know what's going on.

But I would definitely get someone's permission.

 

[Martin_V3i]

I would ask nearby farmers to find out who is using it or who owns it. Neighbors usually know what's going on.

But I would definitely get someone's permission.

That is what I would do. I was raised on a farm. We'd know who was who.

 

[stetam]

I use this app to ID landowners.

Steve

https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=dc37fec2f8044fc3a7f2898ed5d602ac

 

[Diga]

For those saying "ask for permission", let's keep in mind that the field is likely owned by a company. The chances of a company saying "yes", is practically zero.

If Smooth wants to hunt it, then he has to look at the possible consequences. If someone from the farm asks him what he's doing, he can say, "I'm just looking for coins, but most of what I find is metal junk that can damage farm machinery". He'll likely be told, "Ok, good luck", or, "That sounds good, but I'll have to contact the company to see if it's ok with them". Either way, no harm done.

 

[FliesOnly]

Points Duly noted. Because, sure, in *our* case, we're not doing something as innocuous as (gasp) stepping off the sidewalk, or spitting. We are doing something much more evil : Metal detecting. Point duly noted.

You're setting up a false dichotomy here and not really addressing the point. You're still referencing "spitting" on someones lawn and equating it to metal detecting, as if the two things are one in the same.

And let's not stop there. Because what you are saying is not restricted to just the question of the post here.

Actually it is "restricted" in that in this example we are talking about private, NOT public property.

It's also equally true of public land too. It's laws/rules known as prohibitions on "harvest" and "remove". Aka take and steal. Everything you've said (which I do not dispute) equally applies to every single beach, forest, park, etc....

Here we go again...conflating Park Rules with "taking" and "stealing", when in fact, if you read those rules they are almost always referring to items that were installed (for lack of a better word) by the park (i.e. picnic tables, BBQ grills, Benches...stuff like that) or assorted types of vegetation (trees, shrubs, flowers, shrooms, etc.), not inanimate objects buried in the ground. I know this because I specifically spoke with a local park manager about this very issue when you and I had a similar discussion some time back.

If you walk into any city hall, anywhere, and ask : "Hi, can I 'dig' , 'take' and 'remove' things from the park (or beach, or forest, etc...) for my own personal profit ?", they will tell you "no". Right ? But you tell me honestly : Did they care one bit that you removed a merc. dime from the park or beach ? Of course not.

Yeah, I guess if you walk up to someone in City Hall and act like a jackass, you might get a negative response.

Yet technically ... you are in violation.

No, most often, you are not. Unlike you, I can't and won't speak for every park everywhere, but the ones I search allow me to remove objects that I have found. Again, I know this because I asked them, and when I told them about your interpretation of their rules, and they actually laughed.

Let's all just give up this evil hobby

Yeah, anyway...blah, blah, blah...I notice that you totally avoided the original question, so I'll ask it again:
What if he finds something of significant value? Is it his to keep?

 

[jimther]

Farm field who’s owner is nowhere to be found, presumed owned by a development company and leased usage to a farm. Crops are down. Just go until asked to leave? Avoid?

Short answer: Go back and re-read a copy of the Metal Detectorists Code of Ethics. Assuming you have read it once before.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... You're still referencing "spitting" on someones lawn and equating it to metal detecting, as if the two things are one in the same....

Yes. Your starting premise is that md'ing is evil. I/we got that already. That it is equivalent to stealing, destruction, etc.... Got it. As long as we start with those given default premises, then yes: Everything else you're saying does indeed logically follow.

....we are talking about private, NOT public property....

Sure. But the *thing* we're talking about doing (aka what you say is stealing) is the same, on *either* public or private property.

"...I know this because I specifically spoke with a local park manager about this very issue ..."

If you give me the name of the city, I shall be more than happy to ask them if flies-only is allowed to "take" (aka steal) things from the city park. Is that ok if I *clarify* that on your behalf ? After all, I wouldn't want you to "get arrested". Ok ? Or "break any laws". So you should be more than happy for me to clarify on your behalf. Ok ?

So you see see F.O.: You didn't ask with the right word combinations and starting inferences. Shame on you.

 

[FliesOnly]

Yes. Your starting premise is that md'ing is evil. I/we got that already. That it is equivalent to stealing, destruction, etc.... Got it. As long as we start with those given default premises, then yes: Everything else you're saying does indeed logically follow.

No, I am not starting from such a premise. You've done this in some of our other discussions as well, and it gets old really quick. You make up things, attest them to me, and then argue against your own nonsense.

I'm asking you a simple question...which you seem incapable of actually answering. If someone metal detects on private property for which they do not have permission, is it OK if they keep the items that they find? Just answer the question, Tom.

Sure. But the *thing* we're talking about doing (aka what you say is stealing) is the same, on *either* public or private property.

First, I never said it was stealing. What I have done repeatedly now, is ask you if it's OK for him to keep the things that he finds? And second, when dealing with private versus public property, they are most definitely NOT the same thing.

If you give me the name of the city, I shall be more than happy to ask them if flies-only is allowed to "take" (aka steal) things from the city park.

Deerfield Park, Mount Pleasant Michigan.

Is that ok if I *clarify* that on your behalf ?

Knock yourself out, Sparky. All I ask is that you be honest with them and mention that'd I'd be metal detecting and that I had already asked if I could keep the objects that I find (as long as I am not in violation of their park rules). Tell them I have obtained the free permit and that I have copies of the email correspondences I've had regarding the keeping of items that I find, and that I keep these documents in the glove-box of my car.

After all, I wouldn't want you to "get arrested". Ok ? Or "break any laws".

No worries, I'm not worried about getting arrested or concerned that I'm breaking any laws.

So you should be more than happy for me to clarify on your behalf. Ok ?

I wouldn’t go so far as to say that I’d be more than happy. Afterall, based on how this conversation has gone, I can’t be completely certain that you’d be totally honest with them during your inquiry. Nonetheless, it’s a free Country, so if you really think that you’re going to prove anything to me, who am I to stop you.

So you see see F.O.: You didn't ask with the right word combinations and starting inferences. Shame on you.

I have no idea what you're talking about.
Granted, you pinned a “starting inference” on me that I did not, in fact make…so maybe your confused by your own nonsense, but ignoring that, I think my question (i.e. “asking with the right word combinations”) is pretty simple and straight forward. The real question is whether or not you're finally going to answer it.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....If someone metal detects on private property for which they do not have permission, is it OK if they keep the items that they find?...

No.

" ... I never said it was stealing ..."

" ...when dealing with private versus public property, they are most definitely NOT the same thing ...."

You didn't have to. The law states that it is is stealing. If you doubt me, let me have a conversation with the city wherever you detect at.

...All I ask is that you be honest with them...

F/O : I will be honest with them about the true nature of the definition of md'ing. And we will see if the "documents you have in your glovebox " were attained under false pretenses (mincing words, and failing to be less than forthcoming as to your true intentions).

....I'm not worried....

Right : Because deep down inside you *KNOW* that our hobby is innocuous and harmless and isn't stealing. WHICH IS EXACTLY THE POINT ! We're starting to get somewhere !

 

[Xxray]

Farm field who’s owner is nowhere to be found, presumed owned by a development company and leased usage to a farm. Crops are down. Just go until asked to leave? Avoid?

I would say, as you now know, don't ask here of all places and use your own judgement. If someone asks you to leave then leave, play dumb say sorry I didn't know.

 

[Smooth23]

Short answer: Go back and re-read a copy of the Metal Detectorists Code of Ethics. Assuming you have read it once before.

Well that’s not really the question here, is it? If you don’t have a valuable input, perhaps don’t input at all.

I would say, as you now know, don't ask here of all places and use your own judgement. If someone asks you to leave then leave, play dumb say sorry I didn't know.

Hah I’m not sorry I asked, because the conversation is good. I’m running low on popcorn though, now. I’m gonna give one more whack at finding an owner then I’m going for it

 

[Xxray]

Hah I’m not sorry I asked, because the conversation is good. I’m running low on popcorn though, now. I’m gonna give one more whack at finding an owner then I’m going for it

Its not like its a graveyard or something, I respect private property within limits, open fields are always a judgement basis.
Not much farmland around me but Ford motor company owns huge tracts of land still undeveloped, in fact Henry decreed that they remain so, and most have till this day.
Some of them they plant sunflowers in, quite a spectacle, 100,000's of them looks real nice. Decided to detect one one day after they plowed and before they planted and actually found some old coinage, a security guard called me over and he was nice and friendly, asked if I ever found anything good, said he always wanted to detect ,, Said be careful, field is loaded with pesticide ,, This guy was older and cool, now they got young guys here who think the future of Fords lies with them, and they boot me out and threaten to call real cops in a heartbeat, but I still go back occasionally. Tried at night once and got eaten alive by mosquitoes so it can be tricky.

 

[dickyoung]

Agreed. If you don't have expressed permission on private property, stay off.

Steve

I agree with the stay off part.Just wanted to say states have different laws.Texas I believe,requires written permission for any activity on any private property. Any Texas LEO can bust you for trespass. In Arkansas,where I live,for property to be legally posted you must put up signs or a particular color paint,in our case an odd purple color. You can still be scrammed by a LEO if you don't have permission but the LEO can't bust you with a fine. If not marked the land owner can request you leave of course,if marked you can be arrested at the landowners discretion. Best idea of course,is to get landowner permission.Outside of hunting club property,it's ridiculously easy to gain access to farm land.Just ask and they say go ahead,just be sure to shut any gates.

 

[FliesOnly]

No.

Finally...thank you...was that so difficult? It does beg the question though...if you now agree that removing objects from private property without permission is a bad thing (i.e. against the law) then why would you tell someone to go ahead a detect on private property without permission?

You didn't have to. The law states that it is is stealing.

What law states that it is stealing? What law are you referencing?

If you doubt me, let me have a conversation with the city wherever you detect at.

Like I said in my previous post...have at it, Sparky. Mount Pleasant, Michigan...give em a call.

F/O : I will be honest with them about the true nature of the definition of md'ing.

I have my doubts.

And we will see if the "documents you have in your glovebox " were attained under false pretenses (mincing words, and failing to be less than forthcoming as to your true intentions).

Bwa ha ha ha ha...so now you're accusing me of lying to the Park Manager. Please...please oh please oh please give her a call. I can assure you that we had a very pleasant and informative exchange of words in our conversations. I was crystal clear with what I was doing, and she was very nice in explaining that I could dig holes and keep what I find (as long as it did not violate park rules). Seriously...I still have all of the email exchanges. I'd copy them here so you could read them for yourself, but you'd probably just accuse me of making them up and lying about it. But if you do want them, I'd be happy to post a copy in my next response.

Right : Because deep down inside you *KNOW* that our hobby is innocuous and harmless and isn't stealing.

But you just admitted that removing objects from private property without permission is illegal.
I mean, this is crazy. You "threaten" to contact the Park Manager (where I occasionally metal detect) in some ridiculous attempt to make it appear as though I'm breaking the law by detecting and removing objects...and when I tell you to "go for it because I'm not worried", you turn around and tell me that I'm not worried because "deep down inside you *KNOW* that our hobby is innocuous and harmless and isn't stealing".[/quote] The actual reason I'm not worried is because I abide by their rules.

But I do love how you once again attest a false premise to me, and then come swooping in like a super-hero to save the day and tell me that reason I'm not worried is because I agree with you. I don't agree with you.

WHICH IS EXACTLY THE POINT ! We're starting to get somewhere !

Actually, we got somewhere when you admitted that removing objects from private property without permission is illegal. That, dear Sir, was exactly the point.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... What law states that it is stealing? What law are you referencing? ....

Here it is, straight from your own city :

https://www.mt-pleasant.org/docs/dept/parks/6-29-22_Chapter_97_Parks_and_Recreation.pdf

97.15 Park Property. No person in a park shall (A) Buildings and other property. (1) Disfiguration and removal. ......

Not to mention you will find ample prohibitions on "Injury" to vegetation blah blah

So you see F/O : There's not a single park in the entire USA that allows you to "remove" park features and property. Verbiage such as this will always exist (aka "steal", "harvest", "take", "move/displace", etc....). Yet that's exactly what we do.

In fact, depending on how we word the question (playing Russian Roulette) You can get someone to "wink wink" give you permission (as if you ever needed their princely say so .... IN THE FIRST PLACE ! ). And I can go in to that exact same office the next day, pointing out this language, and ask : "Hi, can I take things out of the park ?" And "Hi, can I disfigure the vegetation ?", and I can get a completely different answer (aka "No").

So to me, what all this means, is that I therefore do NOT construe that we need permission to hunt public parks. I do NOT construe such language to mean that md'ing is a no-no.

As for private property (even for the insanely innocuous side of a dirt road ag field in the case of the O.P. here) : Sure , go right ahead. Stick to public parks. Don't ever so much as step off the sidewalk . Sure! That's fine !!

 

[FliesOnly]

Here it is, straight from your own city :

https://www.mt-pleasant.org/docs/dept/parks/6-29-22_Chapter_97_Parks_and_Recreation.pdf

97.15 Park Property. No person in a park shall (A) Buildings and other property. (1) Disfiguration and removal. ......

Do you think I'm stupid, Tom? Do you honestly think that I had not look at the rules already? Did you think that I, and everyone who is crazy enough to still be following this thread, would just go:"Oh my God, Tom just showed that it's against park rules to remove objects" and let it go at that?!?!

For everyone else, here is the the rest of 97.15
(1) Disfiguration and removal. Willfully mark, deface, disfigure, injure, tamper with, or displace or remove, any buildings,
bridges, tables, benches, fireplaces, railings, paving or paving materials, water lines or other public utilities or parts or
appurtenances thereof, signs, notices or placards whether temporary or permanent, monuments, stakes, posts, or other
boundary markers, or other structures or equipment, facilities or park property or appurtenances whatsoever, either real or
personal
Maybe next time try to supply the entire section, not just the part that you think proves your point.

So you see F/O : There's not a single park in the entire USA that allows you to "remove" park features and property. Verbiage such as this will always exist (aka "steal", "harvest", "take", "move/displace", etc....). Yet that's exactly what we do.

So you see, T in C, you're making stuff up.

So to me, what all this means, is that I therefore do NOT construe that we need permission to hunt public parks. I do NOT construe such language to mean that md'ing is a no-no.

Well, you can construe whatever you want, but facts are facts. In the County Parks of Isabella County, Michigan, you need to first get a [free] permit and then agree to obey the Park Rules.
As for not construing it to mean that metal detecting is a no-no...well...no kidding Sherlock. No one construes it to mean that, that's why metal detecting is allowed and you can remove (with reason) the objects that you find. I mean, you're the guy who has been telling me that park rules say I can't remove things, and now you're saying the park rules don't say that. It's almost as if you're making stuff up, and then arguing against yourself to prove a point that no one has ever disputed.

As for private property (even for the insanely innocuous side of a dirt road ag field in the case of the O.P. here) : Sure , go right ahead. Stick to public parks. Don't ever so much as step off the sidewalk . Sure! That's fine !!

I have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

Look, this is actually quite simple. It's not proper, it's not ethical, and it's likely illegal to metal detect and remove objects from private property on which you do not have permission to do so.
If you, or anyone else, choose to detect anyway...fine. But then don't act all surprised and pissed off when we start seeing places ban metal detecting altogether. Stop blaming those who attempt to find out if it is or is not allowed. Stop acting like "asking if permission is needed" is the crime of the century and the real reason metal detecting gets banned, when you say that it's OK to detect on private property without permission, just as long as you think you won't get caught.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... "Oh my God, Tom just showed that it's against park rules to remove objects" and let it go at that?!?!.....

F/O : Do you think I'm making this up ?? It's wording like I linked to you that DOES INDEED give some md'rs fits. And they fret themselves silly wondering if they can detect. *OR* maybe they're not worried about verbiage like that, BUT HOWEVER, when they get the answer "No" back from city hall, there has indeed been cases where verbiage, such as I cite IS THE RESPONSE THE CITY GIVES (gee, aren't we glad we asked then ??)

..... Maybe next time try to supply the entire section, not just the part that you think proves your point......

The only thing your expanded copy & paste does, is simply further sink you. So I fail to see the point. My only point was to show that you can not "remove" things. And for that, the portion of the quote I gave was sufficient.

..... It's almost as if you're making stuff up,.....

F/O : I won't dispute you about "stepping off the road". I will grant you the technicality on that . As it pertains to the O.P. here. Great. But we're mixing subjects. I am disputing your past assertions that md'rs should show up at city halls seeking permissions to hunt parks. And correct me if I'm wrong, but you're of the opinion that we should have permission for city parks, wherever we go. Right ? *THAT* is what I'm disputing. I've dropped the "locker room talk" on stepping off the sidewalk stuff.

 

[randy]

Everyone who reads this forum knows Tom's opinion on this stuff. Agree or disagree, and I'm not stating where I stand at this time, I think we can all agree that his opinion is well thought out and based on decades of experience.

By F/O's logic, it seems to appear illegal to remove broken glass, beer cans and similar objects (a.k.a "trash"), from a park or other site. I tend to think it is a good idea to remove these objects, but that's just me. While this may be called "argument from absurdum" (or whatever the fancy Latin legal phrase is), it isn't because it shows how much more nuanced the issue is.

An example of this "nuance spectrum", if you will, is, if I find a class ring, who owns it? The park or the person who has their initials engraved in it. I tend to to side with the person with the initials, and try to contact them, not the park. Not saying this is right or wrong, ethical or non ethical, legal in your jurisdiction or not, (and all this stuff varies by jurisdiction), just saying what I do, and showing more examples of nuance rather than "black or white".

Speaking of "black or white", there is no such thing in most domains. There is a false dichotomy between "private" and "public" property, but people argue their points as if that is all there is. Of course it is much more nuanced. There are many shades of grey. Is a house in a development on a half acre lot with 2 kids and 2 cars the same as a random field owned by a 501(c)(3) and managed by a board of directors the same, the latter with a mission statement to provide for public recreation (including hunting)? Both are private property.

Remember, removing a deer you just shot takes much more capital from the collective than removing a coin-sized object. More nuance. Of course, its illegal for me to remove any shell casings I find after the deer is shot, by F/O's logic, as I understand it.

Its unclear what F/O is trying to accomplish here with his pugilistic argument Perhaps that will become clear later, but arguing the details of Isabella County, Michigan, does not seem to be a path there for most readers, including, perhaps, the OP.

In any case, I think the OP answered his own question simply by asking the question, and then saying the visibility of the site gave him the "heebee jeebees".

If you are not going to have fun, don't do it. If you need us to justify to anyone hunting a particular site, or asking a forum who does not know the details of the site, then, at least IMHO, you are asking the wrong question, tho I'll admit that if I am ever in Isabella County again, I may know what to do

The bottom line is this: Use common sense and judgment, and do what feels right (us followers of Victorian philosopher John Stuart Mill would say "do what maximizes happiness in the world"). This applies both to pulling objects from the ground that no-one else cares about, while remediating any damage to the turf, as well as attacking others on forums.