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  #281  
Old 08-01-2021, 02:12 PM
mh9162013 mh9162013 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bill_Ace_350 View post
you nailed it with "...my body...my choice."

That belief is the standard for another issue, so it should apply to this one too.

People will.choose to apply it selectively, however.
Oh, so true! And that's what's so frustrating about it.

Let's list the laws and mandates concerning sovereignty over one's own body that so many people had no problem with (or at least didn't think was a big deal) even though they're strongly against having to get vaccinated, tested and/or wear a mask:

Laws against DUI
Seat belt laws
Helmet laws
Prohibitions on smoking indoors
Legal age of alcohol consumption
Laws banning or restricting the use and consumption of illicit drugs
Vaccine requirements for most school-age children to attend schools
Vaccine requirements for many healthcare professionals, a la the annual flu shot
Laws making rape illegal

I'm sure there are more out there.


  #282  
Old 08-01-2021, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
Oh, so true! And that's what's so frustrating about it.

Let's list the laws and mandates concerning sovereignty over one's own body that so many people had no problem with (or at least didn't think was a big deal) even though they're strongly against having to get vaccinated, tested and/or wear a mask:

Laws against DUI
Seat belt laws
Helmet laws
Prohibitions on smoking indoors
Legal age of alcohol consumption
Laws banning or restricting the use and consumption of illicit drugs
Vaccine requirements for most school-age children to attend schools
Vaccine requirements for many healthcare professionals, a la the annual flu shot
Laws making rape illegal

I'm sure there are more out there.
Of the "laws" you have listed, some are absolutely necessary.....DUI/rape
A couple are questionable.....smoking indoors (I don't smoke), legal age of alcohol consumption or smoking age (not mentioned)
And a couple are just designed to add revenue to the town or state's coffers........helmet laws and seat belt laws.
More "laws" created, results in more "law breakers" being created.

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  #283  
Old 08-01-2021, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Detector View post
We had the chance to kill it, but we let politics in the way, now it is here to stay.
Why do you assume or claim that the ones who don't want the Covid vaccination are resisting because of "politics" ?

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  #284  
Old 08-01-2021, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by diggin4clad View post
Why do you assume or claim that the ones who don't want the Covid vaccination are resisting because of "politics" ?
I'm not "assuming" anything, I'm basing it on the majority of excuses posted here.

"The government doesn't have the Right to force us to get the vaccination."

"The vaccination doesn't work."

"It is no more dangerous than the annual flu"

These are all political excuses.

The government is charged with the protection of the American people. If they decide not getting the vaccination puts the majority of Americans at risk, they can mandate it. If they feel wearing a mask is necessary to protect the majority of Americans, they can mandate it.

When the science and numbers show the annual flu & COVID deaths are nowhere the same, the political view is they're lying about the numbers.

When science shows masks do in fact reduce the spreading of COVID, the political view is to make up their own reason why it isn't true.

The vast majority of my friends use the same excuses and all based on their political views.

Why didn't we have all these people denying to take the Polio vaccination? It wasn't political.

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  #285  
Old 08-01-2021, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by diggin4clad View post
Of the "laws" you have listed, some are absolutely necessary.....DUI/rape
A couple are questionable.....smoking indoors (I don't smoke), legal age of alcohol consumption or smoking age (not mentioned)
And a couple are just designed to add revenue to the town or state's coffers........helmet laws and seat belt laws.
More "laws" created, results in more "law breakers" being created.
I think more of those laws are necessary than you do, but that's not my point. My point is that most people who are against vaccines and masks based on the "my body, my choice" reasoning aren't up in arms about those laws...and they should be, at least if they want to be consistent philosophically. This is fine on paper, as people have the right to have their own opinions, even if they're not logically consistent. But my overall point is that much (not all) of the resistance to the COVID vaccine is politically based.

As for more laws being created resulting in more law breakers, yes, that's true. But many laws exist because people couldn't do the right thing.

Smoking is bad for your health, as is secondhand smoke. But some smokers don't have the empathy, manners, etc. to stop smoking when they're around nonsmokers who would prefer not to smell that smoke (in a location both have equal rights to be in). As a result, we instituted indoor no smoking laws.


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  #286  
Old 08-01-2021, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by diggin4clad View post
Why do you assume or claim that the ones who don't want the Covid vaccination are resisting because of "politics" ?
To shed a little light on your question, the Kaiser Family Foundation has researched the demographics of those that have chosen to get vaccinated and those that, to date, have refused the vaccine.

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covi...-unvaccinated/

Don't want to get into a political discussion here, just presenting the data from Kaiser.

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  #287  
Old 08-01-2021, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
I think more of those laws are necessary than you do, but that's not my point. My point is that most people who are against vaccines and masks based on the "my body, my choice" reasoning aren't up in arms about those laws...and they should be, at least if they want to be consistent philosophically. This is fine on paper, as people have the right to have their own opinions, even if they're not logically consistent. But my overall point is that much (not all) of the resistance to the COVID vaccine is politically based.

As for more laws being created resulting in more law breakers, yes, that's true. But many laws exist because people couldn't do the right thing.

Smoking is bad for your health, as is secondhand smoke. But some smokers don't have the empathy, manners, etc. to stop smoking when they're around nonsmokers who would prefer not to smell that smoke (in a location both have equal rights to be in). As a result, we instituted indoor no smoking laws.
In a location where both parties have a right to be in , the nonsmoker has no right whatsoever to complain. Just stop whining and get the hell out , leave. I have almost been in physical confrontations where someone pulls that !!!! in a casino. When there is a non smoking section 40' away. Or better yet , they shouldn't be in a casino. Like if you don't drink or don't like being around drunks. You probably don't want to be in a bar.

P.S....I don't care for smoke , but I don't cry about it. And I do remember smoke filled restaurants and airplanes !


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  #288  
Old 08-01-2021, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudy View post
To shed a little light on your question, the Kaiser Family Foundation has researched the demographics of those that have chosen to get vaccinated and those that, to date, have refused the vaccine.

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covi...-unvaccinated/

Don't want to get into a political discussion here, just presenting the data from Kaiser.
Demographics is not an exact science. The "study" can find that one political party tends to get or refuse the vaccination more than the other, but that doesn't mean that everyone in that group goes along with the herd. Likewise for any other group, be it an age group, a gender group, a geographical group or whatever else.
When the poster claimed "politics" it seemed to me that he was lumping the non vaxxers with the Republican party.

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  #289  
Old 08-01-2021, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by graybeard View post
The source you are getting the info from is just throwing numbers out there for anyone to believe.

Before I would believe them I need to see proof of what they are saying.

Do you actually know of anyone that really died from what they are calling covid?
We had a legend (Scuba) hear his last beep of a metal detector because of Covid.

It is sad, yes, but is proof nonetheless.

Josh

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  #290  
Old 08-01-2021, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by KOB View post
In a location where both parties have a right to be in , the nonsmoker has no right whatsoever to complain. Just stop whining and get the hell out , leave. I have almost been in physical confrontations where someone pulls that !!!! in a casino. When there is a non smoking section 40' away. Or better yet , they shouldn't be in a casino. Like if you don't drink or don't like being around drunks. You probably don't want to be in a bar.

P.S....I don't care for smoke , but I don't cry about it. And I do remember smoke filled restaurants and airplanes !
Why not? Why does the smoker have the right to physically harm the nonsmoker? Just because the harm may (or may not) be minor, doesn't mean the smoker's rights trumps the nonsmoker's rights.

Do I have the right to go up to someone in restaurant and flick their ear? Of course not, even if the physical harm (if any) is negligible.

But regardless of our thoughts on smoking laws (I'm all for them, but I see where there comes a point where people need to deal with "everyday discomforts." But I think you and I might disagree as to where someone might draw the line, but that's cool...agree to disagree).

I only brought up those laws to make a point about the "my body, my choice" argument. It's my body, so don't I have a choice whether or not I inhale someone else's smoke?

It's my body and my car, so don't I get a choice as to whether I choose to drive drunk on public roads or not?

It's my body, so don't I get to decide whether I wear a seat belt or not?

It's my body, so don't I get to decide if I want to use illicit drugs or not?

You get the idea...


  #291  
Old 08-01-2021, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by diggin4clad View post
Demographics is not an exact science. The "study" can find that one political party tends to get or refuse the vaccination more than the other, but that doesn't mean that everyone in that group goes along with the herd. Likewise for any other group, be it an age group, a gender group, a geographical group or whatever else.
When the poster claimed "politics" it seemed to me that he was lumping the non vaxxers with the Republican party.
Politics is definitely playing a role in some people's decision to get vaccinated or not.

But you're right, just b/c someone is Republican, evangelical, white, etc. doesn't mean they're automatically going to be against the vaccine. But there can still be overall trends, correlations or similarities among those who choose not to get vaccinated.


  #292  
Old 08-01-2021, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by diggin4clad View post
Demographics is not an exact science. The "study" can find that one political party tends to get or refuse the vaccination more than the other, but that doesn't mean that everyone in that group goes along with the herd. Likewise for any other group, be it an age group, a gender group, a geographical group or whatever else.
When the poster claimed "politics" it seemed to me that he was lumping the non vaxxers with the Republican party.
I have many republican friends that are vaccinated. I also have several that have chosen not to. The demographics are derived from a large number of people, not just my friends and acquaintances.

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  #293  
Old 08-01-2021, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by davidlhyde63366 View post
SCUBA DETECTIVE DIED OF COVID-19 he was known by many on this forum . https://metaldetectingforum.com/showthread.php?t=291336
I liked Scuba and actually mailed him some poles a few years ago. BUT scuba did have open heart surgery about 60-90 days ago. He took 1 week off and then proceeded to drive around the state from dawn to dusk getting in and out of cold water hauling tanks and equipment. I understand its what he like to do.

Question is if he caught a cold/flu/etc etc would that have had the same result?

RIP Scuba

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  #294  
Old 08-02-2021, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
Why not? Why does the smoker have the right to physically harm the nonsmoker? Just because the harm may (or may not) be minor, doesn't mean the smoker's rights trumps the nonsmoker's rights.

Do I have the right to go up to someone in restaurant and flick their ear? Of course not, even if the physical harm (if any) is negligible.

But regardless of our thoughts on smoking laws (I'm all for them, but I see where there comes a point where people need to deal with "everyday discomforts." But I think you and I might disagree as to where someone might draw the line, but that's cool...agree to disagree).

I only brought up those laws to make a point about the "my body, my choice" argument. It's my body, so don't I have a choice whether or not I inhale someone else's smoke?

It's my body and my car, so don't I get a choice as to whether I choose to drive drunk on public roads or not?

It's my body, so don't I get to decide whether I wear a seat belt or not?

It's my body, so don't I get to decide if I want to use illicit drugs or not?

You get the idea...
Yeah , I get the "My body , My choice" point you're trying to make. But that can go on forever. I took the specific smoking analogy/legality topic though. Take 2 people (1 smoking , the other not) and put them in a 6'6' room or whatever. They both have the right to be there. Sure , I guess the nonsmoker could sit there and complain while a chimney is going off next to him. But the smoker is exercising his right. If it effects the nonsmoker that much , oh well. Instead of complaining and worrying about his health , etc , he should just remove himself. But this can also go on for many of the other "my body , my choice" theory as well. You get the idea...


  #295  
Old 08-02-2021, 12:31 AM
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Hey guys here is a video about "COVID and Censorship". Russell Brand is generally bent towards the progressive left. I still like his stuff and I am subscribed to his channel. While I don't agree with him all that much, I do respect him because he is not a fanatical ideologue and encourages debate from all sides.

https://youtu.be/md1LHrSWUOc

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  #296  
Old 08-02-2021, 06:48 AM
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As far as "smoker's rights" go, I'm a subscriber to the old adage "My right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins". Smoking is known to be harmful, so unless your indoors business caters ONLY to smokers and employs nobody but smokers, I don't see a right to smoke indoors outside of your own home.

I am vaccinated, and prefer that anyone who can contribute to making COVID-19 harder to spread by doing likewise. Again, vaccination is not 100% effective, but if everyone were vaccinated, it would be too hard to spread to allow the pandemic to continue.

However, I do agree that the list of "rights" presented earlier mixes rights with abuses. Owning a gun is far different from dangerously using it in public. Drinking might only hurt yourself. DWI can (and does) seriously hurt others.

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  #297  
Old 08-02-2021, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Detector View post
I'm not "assuming" anything, I'm basing it on the majority of excuses posted here.

"The government doesn't have the Right to force us to get the vaccination."

"The vaccination doesn't work."

"It is no more dangerous than the annual flu"

These are all political excuses.

The government is charged with the protection of the American people. If they decide not getting the vaccination puts the majority of Americans at risk, they can mandate it. If they feel wearing a mask is necessary to protect the majority of Americans, they can mandate it.

When the science and numbers show the annual flu & COVID deaths are nowhere the same, the political view is they're lying about the numbers.

When science shows masks do in fact reduce the spreading of COVID, the political view is to make up their own reason why it isn't true.

The vast majority of my friends use the same excuses and all based on their political views.

Why didn't we have all these people denying to take the Polio vaccination? It wasn't political.
When I was under 5 years old I hated medicine and shots. So what political party would that have made me to be in? I was a kid then so I didn't care or hadn't heard anything about politics then.


  #298  
Old 08-02-2021, 07:25 AM
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Businesses that mandate mask and vaccines could be digging their own grave.
Also heard where people going to the Post Office were told they didn't have anyone to work the window, because the vaccine requirements.


  #299  
Old 08-02-2021, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
Why not? Why does the smoker have the right to physically harm the nonsmoker? Just because the harm may (or may not) be minor, doesn't mean the smoker's rights trumps the nonsmoker's rights.

Do I have the right to go up to someone in restaurant and flick their ear? Of course not, even if the physical harm (if any) is negligible.

But regardless of our thoughts on smoking laws (I'm all for them, but I see where there comes a point where people need to deal with "everyday discomforts." But I think you and I might disagree as to where someone might draw the line, but that's cool...agree to disagree).

I only brought up those laws to make a point about the "my body, my choice" argument. It's my body, so don't I have a choice whether or not I inhale someone else's smoke?

It's my body and my car, so don't I get a choice as to whether I choose to drive drunk on public roads or not?

It's my body, so don't I get to decide whether I wear a seat belt or not?

It's my body, so don't I get to decide if I want to use illicit drugs or not?

You get the idea...

Since Covid I have seen a newfound push for business owners rights. Mainly, their "right" to require masks in their private business if they wish. Why doesn't that extend to smoking? Shouldn't it be up to the business owner to decide if they want to allow smoking or not? The non smokers have the right to not frequent that establishment if they choose. As a citizen, you have the right to choose whether or not you put yourself in what you feel is harms way, but you do not have the right to complain about it when you do. Do you feel you have the right to walk out onto a busy street and then complain if you get ran over?

Personally, I don't wear my seatbelt, mostly because I'm told I have to. If I get killed or seriously injured as a result, that was my choice and I paid the consequences for it. I don't need society to protect me from myself.

Drunk driving is a bad example and you know that.

Honestly, who's business is it if you want to do drugs? I've never done an illegal drug in my life (Even marijuana), but people pump themselves full of less than healthy substances every day, many of which directly result in the death over time, that they get from the corner grocery store. If someone wants to smoke a little weed from the comfort of their living room, do you really feel like you have the right to tell them they can't? Are you going to pick out what type of socks and shoes they wear next?


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  #300  
Old 08-02-2021, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by longbow62 View post
Hey guys here is a video about "COVID and Censorship". Russell Brand is generally bent towards the progressive left. I still like his stuff and I am subscribed to his channel. While I don't agree with him all that much, I do respect him because he is not a fanatical ideologue and encourages debate from all sides.

https://youtu.be/md1LHrSWUOc
I didn't watch the video. As soon as I saw youtube that was enough information.
Any video on Youtube has been "approved" for viewing. Don't expect to find too much truth on there.

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