Nokta/Makro SMF (My Prediction)

[jmaclen]

Are you being serious or being facetious? I ask b/c I have 2 Garrett Carrots...

Detector Ben is being serious at least from the standpoint of what he experienced and showed in his videos. I know another YouTuber who feels the same. Not bashing the APEX one bit here just being realistic.

The issues with simultaneous multi frequency detectors from ALL of the manufacturers up until the Equinox (the issues still exists with the Vanquish somewhat) are weight (tons of heavy batteries in the previous Minelab and Whites models and heavy designs to support the weight) overall depth versus recovery speed/target separation, EMI stability, sensitivity to tiny targets, iron handling, high mineralization poor handling, and ground balance issues. It is always a trade off with SMF.

The Equinox had to add iron bias updates in order for it to do better on shallow iron targets meaning: not false all over the target ID scale instead of calling most shallow iron based targets iron. Just the way the Multi IQ processes the return signal makes detecting iron accuracy much harder for the Equinox but makes most non-ferrous targets super accurate even at the edge of detection.. Minelab "fixed" or at least greatly improved recovery speed and target separation on the Equinox compared to earlier Minelab FBS. EMI is still a big issue with the Equinox. It handles all types of mineralization great however and is outstanding on tiny targets.

Garrett and Minelab did very well on reducing the weight/batteries to power their current SMF technologies. Some of that weight reduction has been perceived as substandard build quality especially for the Equinox.

The Vanquish is still running through batteries very quickly, is not very sensitive to tiny targets like the Equinox is, is much better at handling EMI, but it won't ground balance in my really bad dirt, has slower recovery speed and multiple target masking at times.

Garrett has already done some updates to improve target ID and overall stability along with replacing some bad Viper coils.

So there is plenty of room for improvement both to the Equinox, and definitely to the next Garrett AT series detector based on their current beginner level APEX tech. I can easily see Nokta Makro coming out with something better than the APEX. I sure hope it can compete with the Equinox but that is a really high bar technology and patent wise for a first time SMF product from Nokta Makro.

 

[diggindaboot]

I can't seem to give away my brand new apex with extra coil. So if you could please let all these folks who love Garrett/Apex know about it I would appreciate it. I have it on every forum and ebay and have zero interest even for $200 less than what I just paid for it. At this point I would probably trade it for a couple of garrett carrots. I might just give it away on my YouTube channel as well.

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Doesn't change the fact people here have been pleased with their Apex. Especially on the beach. I have a new F Pulse in the box ( I won it at a seeded hunt) and a 125 bucks if you want to make a deal.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Maybe this will help get a buyer for the Apex.
This is the prerelease video where Apex (not by name ) is talked about some.
Actually I find this video interesting.
As the gent in video Basically is saying all the other Garrett products are dinosaurs. Due to old tech, heavier weight and use of old style batteries.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rXM0eEHts44

 

[woodbutcher]

Minelab and a few other companies actually copied the design of their machines from the Quest metal detector that came out in 2015.. The equinox, simplex and probably a few other companies got lucky by not having to dump much into appearance ,seeming they copied Quest design

 

[detectorben]

Doesn't change the fact people here have been pleased with their Apex. Especially on the beach. I have a new F Pulse in the box ( I won it at a seeded hunt) and a 125 bucks if you want to make a deal.

So sad that a "cutting edge" garrett machine is worth a pinpointer and $125. Lol garrett should be ashamed. Garrett is lucky they have the security and military divisions. Because their hobby division has been a HUGE disappointment after dominating the market with AT pro for years.

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[mh9162013]

So sad that a "cutting edge" garrett machine is worth a pinpointer and $125. Lol garrett should be ashamed. Garrett is lucky they have the security and military divisions. Because their hobby division has been a HUGE disappointment after dominating the market with AT pro for years.

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I agree that, based on what I see from reputable sources online, the Apex is definitely not in the same league as the Equinox and possible N/M's SMF offering.

However, from a business perspective, it may not be a bad decision to sell it in a manner that Garrett has done.

Based on what we know, Garrett's level of SMF development is nowhere near Minelab's. Maybe Garrett will catch up or maybe not. But even if they do, it's gonna take a while.

Does Garrett release their incremental developments into SMF? Or do they just wait until they release something that can reasonably compete with the Equinox? From a business perspective, I can see why they'd take the former approach.

Personally, I think the biggest mistake with the Apex was pricing it as high as they did. From what I gather, it's priced like a Vanquish 540, but performs more like a 340 (not literally; just used these machines as an example to make my point).

If the Apex retailed for $325 for the base model (instead of $425), I think they would have hit a home run. They might have barely made any money on each machine sold, but they probably would have sold far more and continued Garrett's marketing dominance in the United States. This might be enough to help them at least tread water until their "Equinox killer" could be developed and released. But most importantly, selling the Apex at that price point would have dramatically quieted many of those critical of the Apex.

The bottom line: Garrett should have released the Apex not as a machine to gain market share, but simply to hold on to the market share they already had. Given how significant this market share is, this isn't a bad long-term strategy.

 

[woodbutcher]

I'm pretty sure the Apex wasn't intended to be anything other than a entry level machine..Which the ace line is Garretts entry level machines,, Ace Apex. .
If guys bought a entry level Ace Apex machine expecting high end value or performance that's not Garrett's fault. And im not sticking up for Garret,just pointing out the obvious.
Ive never used or owned a Apex. Although I do like the at pro I know from the name Ace Apex it's a Ace,and the beginners model for Garret.Not that it's a bad thing,but I've moved past beginner machines a long time ago.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

I'm pretty sure the Apex wasn't intended to be anything other than a entry level machine..Which the ace line is Garretts entry level machines,, Ace Apex. .
If guys bought a entry level Ace Apex machine expecting high end value or performance that's not Garrett's fault. And im not sticking up for Garret,just pointing out the obvious.
Ive never used or owned a Apex. Although I do like the at pro I know from the name Ace Apex it's a Ace,and the beginners model for Garret.Not that it's a bad thing,but I've moved past beginner machines a long time ago.

Would have been nice if their first video reflected as much.
Supposed the Apex was going to eat the ace 250 users lunch.
Bunch of mystery BS is what it was.
Curtain pulled.
Ever watch the wizard of oz.

 

[detectorben]

Would have been nice if their first video reflected as much.

Supposed the Apex was going to eat the ace 250 users lunch.

Bunch of mystery BS is what it was.

Curtain pulled.

Ever watch the wizard of oz.

Exactly

Last I checked $500 wasn't the price of an entry level detector. The $120 Dr Otek performed as well as the apex in my test garden and field.

I am predicting that once this Nokta SMF is released it will just demonstrate once again how far behind Garrett is.

I still believe Garrett fell asleep at the wheel while AT Pro was dominating the market. You couldn't go anywhere without seeing an at pro on tv or in the field. All of a sudden minelab and nokta blew past them while Garrett scrambled to put out the AT Pro 2 also known as the Max which was a total flop. Garrett finally woke up so far behind they are still scrambling and missed the mark again. As poster above stated the Apex is not as advertised. Too pricey for entry level yet not mid level performance either. At max was strike one. Apex is strike two. If Garrett misses again they may even lose their fan boys who only buy based on brand name.

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. I know I won't be purchasing any new Garrett machines going forward until they have been out for at least a year and show proven results from reputable testers and users.

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[mh9162013]

I'm pretty sure the Apex wasn't intended to be anything other than a entry level machine..Which the ace line is Garretts entry level machines,, Ace Apex. .
If guys bought a entry level Ace Apex machine expecting high end value or performance that's not Garrett's fault. And im not sticking up for Garret,just pointing out the obvious.
Ive never used or owned a Apex. Although I do like the at pro I know from the name Ace Apex it's a Ace,and the beginners model for Garret.Not that it's a bad thing,but I've moved past beginner machines a long time ago.

It absolutely is! Garrett decided how to market the Apex and how to price it. If the consumer is disappointed with how the Apex performs, much of that blame (from a nontechnical perspective) is on Garrett.

 

[woodbutcher]

Who said the consumer is dissatisfied with the Apex? I'm almost at a loss for words here, a select few here who think what they use is the best made for everyone doesn't make up the vast majority of people in this hobbie who own a ace Apex,or anything else. .. Honestly, I'm smart enough to know the ACE Apex was a starter machine so I chose not to buy it. No smoke or mirrors needed for me,and to be honest I saw none.You guys who are in this hobbie long enough should know the difference in starter machines and midrange..Why would you even buy it?
Listen guys, if your happy with what your using then let it be.No need to blast what other guys are using ,that's just childish,and doesn't say much for your character.

 

[mh9162013]

Who said the consumer is dissatisfied with the Apex? I'm almost at a loss for words here, a select few here who think what they use is the best made for everyone doesn't make up the vast majority of people in this hobbie who own a ace Apex,or anything else. .. Honestly, I'm smart enough to know the ACE Apex was a starter machine so I chose not to buy it. No smoke or mirrors needed for me,and to be honest I saw none.You guys who are in this hobbie long enough should know the difference in starter machines and midrange..Why would you even buy it?
Listen guys, if your happy with what your using then let it be.No need to blast what other guys are using ,that's just childish,and doesn't say much for your character.

I think detectorben's struggles to sell the Apex and the Apex's selling price on the secondhand market say a lot. While a comparably low resale price of a product doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad product (or that many people are unhappy with it), I'm pretty sure there's a strong correlation.

I never got the impression that many others here who are critical of the Apex are thinking what they use is the best or that anyone who decides to use the Apex is wrong. But for the marketing hype that preceded it, along with its retail price, many of us are disappointed with the Apex.

You say the Apex is a starter machine; I agree. But it's not priced that way, nor has it been consistently marketed that way. It's these latter 2 points that I and I feel a few others are taking issue with.

Imagine if the Equinox 800 retailed for $3,000. Do you think it would be getting anywhere near the praise that it's been getting?

Now imagine if the Apex's base model retailed for $175. People would be waxing eloquent about it and it would be selling like hot cakes.

I know these are unrealistic numbers, but when analyzing the merits of a machine, you have to factor in all the variables, including promises made by the company and its base retail price.

A great example is the Simplex. It's performance is not what gets the attention. It's the performance for its price.

 

[woodbutcher]

I think detectorben's struggles to sell the Apex and the Apex's selling price on the secondhand market say a lot. While a comparably low resale price of a product doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad product (or that many people are unhappy with it), I'm pretty sure there's a strong correlation.

I never got the impression that many others here who are critical of the Apex are thinking what they use is the best or that anyone who decides to use the Apex is wrong. But for the marketing hype that preceded it, along with its retail price, many of us are disappointed with the Apex.

You say the Apex is a starter machine; I agree. But it's not priced that way, nor has it been consistently marketed that way. It's these latter 2 points that I and I feel a few others are taking issue with.

Imagine if the Equinox 800 retailed for $3,000. Do you think it would be getting anywhere near the praise that it's been getting?

Now imagine if the Apex's base model retailed for $175. People would be waxing eloquent about it and it would be selling like hot cakes.

I know these are unrealistic numbers, but when analyzing the merits of a machine, you have to factor in all the variables, including promises made by the company and its base retail price.

A great example is the Simplex. It's performance is not what gets the attention. It's the performance for its price.

Resale for anything is hard right now. Etrac is a $1500 machine and going for around $550 used. Equinox 800 used about $600, anything more and it'll set awhile,at least on forums. . At pro, maybe $300 used, although guys ask more they still sit on forums.. used is used, and it seems age don't matter anymore. Everyone wants the best deal and the market is saturated with used machines,it's a buyer's dream and a seller's nightmare... Nothing wrong with these used machines either,any of them.
I feel Bens pain, and wish him well on the sale.

 

[diggindaboot]

So sad that a "cutting edge" garrett machine is worth a pinpointer and $125. Lol garrett should be ashamed. Garrett is lucky they have the security and military divisions. Because their hobby division has been a HUGE disappointment after dominating the market with AT pro for years.

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Here's a can of 'get over it'. Have a spoon full and you should be fine. Your fault and yours only that you bought it. Garrett didn't market it to compete with the Nox like N/M is doing with their SMF. You bought it to try it out and you don't like it. Now you're crying because you can't sell it for the price you want. Boo-Hoo. I don't feel bad for you.

 

[diggindaboot]

I think detectorben's struggles to sell the Apex and the Apex's selling price on the secondhand market say a lot. While a comparably low resale price of a product doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad product (or that many people are unhappy with it), I'm pretty sure there's a strong correlation.

I never got the impression that many others here who are critical of the Apex are thinking what they use is the best or that anyone who decides to use the Apex is wrong. But for the marketing hype that preceded it, along with its retail price, many of us are disappointed with the Apex.

You say the Apex is a starter machine; I agree. But it's not priced that way, nor has it been consistently marketed that way. It's these latter 2 points that I and I feel a few others are taking issue with.

Imagine if the Equinox 800 retailed for $3,000. Do you think it would be getting anywhere near the praise that it's been getting?

Now imagine if the Apex's base model retailed for $175. People would be waxing eloquent about it and it would be selling like hot cakes.

I know these are unrealistic numbers, but when analyzing the merits of a machine, you have to factor in all the variables, including promises made by the company and its base retail price.

A great example is the Simplex. It's performance is not what gets the attention. It's the performance for its price.

An Apex will spank a Simplex on a saltwater beach all day. It's not even close. It's also great in iron. It's beyond a starter detector and can do more than the Vanquish detectors. However it can't do what a Nox can and Ben is pissed. Too bad for him. If you buy a cheaper detector and expect it to do as much as a 900 dollar detector then you've tricked your own mind. This is all on Ben.

 

[diggindaboot]

It absolutely is! Garrett decided how to market the Apex and how to price it. If the consumer is disappointed with how the Apex performs, much of that blame (from a nontechnical perspective) is on Garrett.

Pure B.S !. Have a brain, use it. If you buy an F 150, common sense will tell you it won't be as fast as a Vette. Garrett didn't market the Apex to compete with the Nox. People always want to pass blame instead of accepting responsibility. If you buy a Vanquish, you won't be expecting Nox like performance.

 

[diggindaboot]

Minelab and a few other companies actually copied the design of their machines from the Quest metal detector that came out in 2015.. The equinox, simplex and probably a few other companies got lucky by not having to dump much into appearance ,seeming they copied Quest design

Yep. Many Nox fans don't want to admit it though. Quest got it right and very innovative on their behalf.

 

[mh9162013]

Pure B.S !. Have a brain, use it. If you buy an F 150, common sense will tell you it won't be as fast as a Vette. Garrett didn't market the Apex to compete with the Nox. People always want to pass blame instead of accepting responsibility. If you buy a Vanquish, you won't be expecting Nox like performance.

You're forgetting the fact that the Apex isn't priced like an entry level detector. Expectations exist for many reasons, not just marketing hype.

 

[mh9162013]

An Apex will spank a Simplex on a saltwater beach all day. It's not even close. It's also great in iron. It's beyond a starter detector and can do more than the Vanquish detectors. However it can't do what a Nox can and Ben is pissed. Too bad for him. If you buy a cheaper detector and expect it to do as much as a 900 dollar detector then you've tricked your own mind. This is all on Ben.

Yes, on a saltwater beach, almost anyone would take an Apex over a Simplex. But is the better performance worth an extra $175? Not as many people aren't going to agree about that.

You keep comparing the Apex to other detectors in performance terms only. Only if they're comparably priced can you do that.

The Apex costs about $175 more than the Simplex and about $50 more than the Vanquish 540 (and $150 more than the 440). Given my research of the Apex, it's not worth that extra money. And from the resale value of the Apex and what many people online are saying, I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment.

 

[diggindaboot]

You're forgetting the fact that the Apex isn't priced like an entry level detector. Expectations exist for many reasons, not just marketing hype.

I'm not forgetting anything. It's not an entry level detector. It's also not a Nox. Hype is a figmentation of the imagination. It was marketed as a SMF detector and morons assumed it would be on par with a 900 dollar Nox. Yet it cost in the 500 dollar range. 100% on the buyer.

If you buy a 30 dollar Tee shirt or a 5 dollar Tee shirt, who is to blame ? You. You're the consumer. You have the power to decide what you want.