Nokta Makro Legend feedback, use, comparisons, etc

[Diga]

There have already been over 60 videos from a buddy of his showing the Legend at Iron Filter 8. I guess tnsharpshooter thinks the world needs a few more.

He is not going to listen to you, Digalicious.

I guess it was too much to ask for a, "Thanks for pointing out my mistakes Dig". Then again, were they mistakes, or was it deliberate?

 

[KOB]

I just dig and find stuff.

My thoughts exactly. Eventually you get to the point where the end game is 1 video. Swinging with beeps all over. Don't even need to look at the screen. And the guy says " If you really don't want to miss anything , dig it all". What you are seeing now is called paralysis by analysis. But he did say his Legend testing was geared towards rookies.

 

[jmaclen]

Video comparing Legend and Equinox 800 sweeping portion of square nail and US clad dime.
Some differences noted.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w3lC0sZgm48

Number of target IDs from the ferrous/non ferrous tone break to a zinc penny on the Equinox is roughly 20. Number of target IDs from the ferrous/non ferrous tone break to a zinc penny on the Legend is 30. Both the Equinox and Legend from zinc penny to the top of the target ID scale is 20 segments. Both also have 10 segments of iron range.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Number of target IDs from the ferrous/non ferrous tone break to a zinc penny on the Equinox is roughly 20. Number of target IDs from the ferrous/non ferrous tone break to a zinc penny on the Legend is 30. Both the Equinox and Legend from zinc penny to the top of the target ID scale is 20 segments. Both also have 10 segments of iron range.

So what are you trying to say?
Seemed to me Equinox based on ID given when coil was pulled back with coil at edge of nail was less affected (based on ID given) compared to Legend.
EQX - 19/20 readings. Compared to Legend- 34/35 readings.
Now this was the easy way.
Could the freq weighting be causing EQX behavior?
I don’t think Legend has freq weighting.
Based on tests I did with with dime and nickel.
Also note results I got using EQX in park 2 in same test. Actually imo park 2 matched moreso Legend’s results (figuring differences) with ID scale.

For gee whiz..
I tried to conflict Legend today using mono program on Deus 2. Seemed Legend will conflict pretty close to where EQX conflicts...roughly 7.8 kHz.

The more I think about this. There may be more genius behind the freq weighting (Multi IQ) than I once thought.
Not another manufacturer admitting to using yet anyways.
And this freq weighting maybe why prospecting mode on Nox is so good on the small stuff.

 

[jmaclen]

So what are you trying to say?
Seemed to me Equinox based on ID given when coil was pulled back with coil at edge of nail was less affected (based on ID given) compared to Legend.
EQX - 19/20 readings. Compared to Legend- 34/35 readings.
Now this was the easy way.
Could the freq weighting be causing EQX behavior?
I don’t think Legend has freq weighting.
Based on tests I did with with dime and nickel.
Also note results I got using EQX in park 2 in same test. Actually imo park 2 matched moreso Legend’s results (figuring differences) with ID scale.

For gee whiz..
I tried to conflict Legend today using mono program on Deus 2. Seemed Legend will conflict pretty close to where EQX conflicts...roughly 7.8 kHz.

The more I think about this. There may be more genius behind the freq weighting (Multi IQ) than I once thought.
Not another manufacturer admitting to using yet anyways.
And this freq weighting maybe why prospecting mode on Nox is so good on the small stuff.

I am not trying to say anything. I am saying the Legend has more target IDs in the low to mid conductor non-ferrous range than the Equinox which helps explain the larger target ID variation of 10 compared to 5.


So far, for the testing/comparison videos I have watched I think your testing has been very fair. I have not seen any bias or blatantly unfair tests. Thanks for doing them.

The Legend 11” coil seems to have the best target ID right under the coil nut especially in Multi in a target separation scenario from my experience. Equinox is not quite as finicky but still IDs best using the center spine. Deus 2 seems to be even less picky.

I still haven’t figured out which of the Multi modes for Legend Park and Field are the most sensitive to smaller targets. At first I thought I heard and read that it was M1. M2 seems to be more sensitive on smaller targets to me…..

Digalicious was complaining about not using IF 1 with discrimination pattern A. I can understand why he is complaining but I don’t understand why he complained about the 40 kHz single frequency test where there is no IF setting for the Legend and no Iron Bias setting for the Equinox. Deus 2 Mono Silencer adjustment offers a clear advantage in single frequency

 

[tnsharpshooter]

More tests coming.
Some sweeping in the wild.
Might put small coils on EQX and Legend.
And compare for accuracy in ground ID before dug of targets then sweep elevated on top of ground. May have to check targets with multi modes though.
See what happens in the end. After say 20 targets are located and dug.

I have played with tone break on Legend (in 0-10 region). One thing I notice seems for whatever reason Legend false more on modern nail vs older nail. With lower tone break and low iron filter dialed in. And I ain’t the first to witness this either. Almost like round head on more modern nail is doing something. Just a hunch. Can’t prove yet.

 

[Diga]

Digalicious was complaining about not using IF 1 with discrimination pattern A. I can understand why he is complaining but I don’t understand why he complained about the 40 kHz single frequency test where there is no IF setting for the Legend and no Iron Bias setting for the Equinox. Deus 2 Mono Silencer adjustment offers a clear advantage in single frequency

There was no explanation that the Nox and Legend only have an iron bias control in SMF. There was no explaining that the most important setting to have when iron unmasking, is an iron bias control.

Most people purchase an SMF for better ground mineralization performance and the better TID, and that's what they're going to use. Yes, the D2 will have the unmasking advantage in SF over the Nox and Legend, but the Nox and Legend aren't designed to maximize iron unmasking in SF. Now add to that the Legend was filtering with discrimination, and overall, the comparison wasn't fair to the Nox and Legend, and above all, it was misleading.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

There was no explanation that the Nox and Legend only have an iron bias control in SMF. There was no explaining that the most important setting to have when iron unmasking, is an iron bias control.

Most people purchase an SMF for better ground mineralization performance and the better TID, and that's what they're going to use. Yes, the D2 will have the unmasking advantage in SF over the Nox and Legend, but the Nox and Legend aren't designed to maximize iron unmasking in SF. Now add to that the Legend was filtering with discrimination, and overall, the comparison wasn't fair to the Nox and Legend, and above all, it was misleading.

I said in video Eqx in single freq has no iron bias. I said in video using Legend that no iron filter using single freq option.
Wake up.

So a person testing/ reviewing detector that has single freq ops ain’t supposed to run and show? This is what you are implying.
Guess you need to go look at what the marketing person for Nokta Makro said after EQX released. She was downplaying SMF vs single freq. Go look I am not making this up.

And believe it on not. It was more the General consensus SMF use was not as good a performer in heavier iron detecting seeking out nonferous targets. Problem here though was what were folks basing their decisions on? Not many SMF models out there. And yes Equinox was likely looked and and this made folks think the way they did. It actually may be still true in some detecting situations but I do think at the very least the gap with SMF in heavier iron has been closed.

Was Fbs/fbs 2 models or CZ 3D or whites V3 series ever bragged on for superior performance in heavier iron? I never did see anyone whose opinion I would place grand value in ever say. And my experiences showed Deus 1 was killer overall vs the SMF model competition. My own thinking may be changed though with release of both Deus 2 and the Legend.

 

[Diga]

I said in video Eqx in single freq has no iron bias. I said in video using Legend that no iron filter using single freq option.
Wake up.

I said there was no explanation. Read my post again...slowly. Most don't even know what the iron bias setting is and/or how to use it. Further to that, you had the Legend filtering with discrimination.

Why not do an unmasking comparison in the way that people will use the Nox or Legend for iron unmasking? Meaning SMF. SMF with no discrimination and the iron bias set at the lowest setting.

Here's a short video from History Revisited showing the Legend unmasking a coin that is not only surrounded by rusty nails, but rusty nails on top of the coin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73A2e6iZeyc&t=102s

 

[tnsharpshooter]

I said there was no explanation. Read my post again...slowly. Most don't even know what the iron bias setting is and/or how to use it. Further to that, you had the Legend filtering with discrimination.

Why not do an unmasking comparison in the way that people will use the Nox or Legend for iron unmasking? Meaning SMF. SMF with no discrimination and the iron bias set at the lowest setting.

Here's a short video from History Revisited showing the Legend unmasking a coin that is not only surrounded by rusty nails, but rusty nails on top of the coin. I'm fairly certain the Nox could do the same with the correct settings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73A2e6iZeyc&t=102s

You ever done a video?
Get you a go pro and go to work.
Show me the way.
Instead of being an arm chair critic.
You lunged at me when I reported of my time it took to update Legend.
Why?
How about maybe think ole Sharpshooter ain’t no dummy albeit not a genius and lend some credence to what he says. Instead of all the negative BS.
I ain’t had the detector that long.
And more videos will be done.
And I will maybe be able to go into more details about the detector.

New folks to detecting may be considering this model as well.
And I value them just as much as anyone else.

 

[Diga]

Can you ever just answer and reply to my questions and points, instead of dodging them?

 

[Diga]

Here's a really good question:

Why is that Nokta Makro and Minelab decided not to include an IB setting in SF, yet XP did?

My guess is that for IB to work correctly, it requires the full target(s) information that SMF provides, but SF doesn't. Meaning a low IB in SF will produce excessive iron falsing, when compared to a low IB in SMF. Or, to put it another way, a low IB in SF works fine in a controlled test, but not in the field due to said excessive iron falsing.

Well, if that isn't the reason, I know I'm not alone in wanting to know the reason.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

I believe when Equinox debuted at Detectival event it had no iron bias. There were pics of summary of detector posted by Minelab I think. Then all of a sudden another pic was posted and iron bias showed up. Minelab didn’t mention this really at the time.
Yeah.
The terminology name silencer and iron bias likely same and now iron filter.
Is iron bias or silencer harder to engineer on a SMF detector? Common sense tells me Yes. Just like engineering GB on SMF detector. More variables involved.

 

[Diga]

The terminology name silencer and iron bias likely same and now iron filter.
Is iron bias or silencer harder to engineer on a SMF detector? Common sense tells me Yes. Just like engineering GB on SMF detector. More variables involved.

Yes. Silencer, iron filter, and iron bias are just different terms to describe the same setting. I wish XP and NM just called it iron bias as Minelab did, because iron bias is a far more accurate term than iron filter or silencer.

With that said, I really want to find out why Nokta and Minelab chose to use a preset iron bias for SF. I'm going to start a new thread about that.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Video showing extra hardware needed/provided for 6 inch coil mounting.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPb_82KH9H4

 

[jmaclen]

Here's a really good question:

Why is that Nokta Makro and Minelab decided not to include an IB setting in SF, yet XP did?

My guess is that for IB to work correctly, it requires the full target(s) information that SMF provides, but SF doesn't. Meaning a low IB in SF will produce excessive iron falsing, when compared to a low IB in SMF. Or, to put it another way, a low IB in SF works fine in a controlled test, but not in the field due to said excessive iron falsing.

Well, if that isn't the reason, I know I'm not alone in wanting to know the reason.

Here is another twist from the opposite direction....Why does Deus 2 have a Bottle Cap Reject adjustable setting.......shouldn't the Silencer setting be enough in SMF?

Some people simplify things and equate the Silencer with Iron Bias.......

I have always just looked at the original Deus and its non-ferrous target detection ability in iron trash as simply amazing and left it at that.

For me, the Equinox and Legend are using a notch form of discrimination for the iron range when the Equinox horseshoe button isn't engaged and when using any of the Legend's preset iron discrimination patterns so no/limited iron audio and no or limited iron target IDs when any of the presets or custom patterns are used just like setting a non-ferrous notch. Deus doesn't deal will iron that way and neither does Deus 2 unless you incorporate the Notch feature.

Setting the Silencer at -1 used to turn off the Silencer on Deus 1. I just haven't dug deep enough into the Deus 2 manual to know if it is still the same but I assume it is OFF when set to -1 using Deus 2 Mono............

If Silencer can be turned off using Deus 2 Mono, I still think Deus 2 mono would out perform the Legend and the Equinox in selectable single frequency ferrous/non-ferrous separation testing even if the Legend and Equinox were set to accept all targets and had some iron volume turned ON.

I could be wrong and often am. Feel free to correct me.

 

[Diga]

Jmaclen,

The Silencer on the D2 is the D2's iron bias control. Although I see your point on the D2's bottle cap reject. I'm thinking the bottle cap reject is a high extension of the iron bias.

 

[jmaclen]

Jmaclen,

The Silencer on the D2 is the D2's iron bias control. Although I see your point on the D2's bottle cap reject. I'm thinking the bottle cap reject is a high extension of the iron bias.

Like I said....some people simplify things by totally equating the Deus/Deus 2 Silencer with Equinox Iron Bias.......for me, that is still not the whole story.

 

[atomicbrh]

My thoughts exactly. Eventually you get to the point where the end game is 1 video. Swinging with beeps all over. Don't even need to look at the screen. And the guy says " If you really don't want to miss anything , dig it all". What you are seeing now is called paralysis by analysis. But he did say his Legend testing was geared towards rookies.

I like that phrase:
"paralysis by analysis"
It describes much of the present metal detecting world.

 

[Diga]

Keph Sherin from Northwest Detector Sales, did a pretty good right up which translates the D2's terminology into the industry standard terminology.

XP Deus II Silencer. What is it?

The XP Deus Silencer is a discrimination feature, almost exactly like the iron bias feature on the Minelab Equinox.

Granted, "almost exactly" because the iron bias is implemented differently on the Nox, Legend, and D2. However, the setting performs the same function in all three.