Minelab Manticore -- Why not say Bluetooth?

[ThatGuyAgain]

I won't go into the whole story again since I already posted it here and again in the iratemetaldetectors forum here. The TL;DR is that the Manticore and Minelab's ML105 headphones use Bluetooth 5.2. So what? BT 5.2 was released in 2020 and is pretty fantastic, right? Exactly! My issue isn't with the underlying tech Minelab used, but with how Minelab marketed it to us.

I've used my Manticore for all of a month, but I can already say that it is my go-to machine for soil and beaches at this point. Target ID is about the same as I get from my Deus II, but the menu system is significantly better, and I don't need to worry about keeping 3 things charged to use it.

Minelab is already taking some heat for their "50% POWER INCREASE OVER THE BEST-SELLING DETECTOR SERIES OF ALL TIME: EQUINOX" and "More Power. More Depth. More Finds." claim. It's still a fantastic detector. I just think their marketing team was being a bit shady and hoping we wouldn't call them on it.

Just yesterday, I moved the guts of my ML105 headphones that came with my Manticore over to the shell of a pair of Sony WH1000-XM4s that I had to improve the weatherproofing and comfort. When I started analyzing the boards, I found that the wireless board ("Board 2" in my diagram from my other posts) had a common Nordic Bluetooth 5.2 transceiver, I had to go back and check the Manticore documentation. I could have sworn they were doing something proprietary for low-latency wireless audio. Sure enough, the Manticore marketing material, tech specs, and manual all just say, "low latency wireless audio". No mention of Bluetooth anywhere that I could find. I went to the ML105 page and found that it did mention Bluetooth, but only so Minelab could distance themselves from "standard Bluetooth", whatever that means ("deliver faster, higher quality audio than standard Bluetooth"). Thinking that maybe I was wrong about the chip and maybe this was something proprietary that Minelab had worked on with Nordic, I went to the FCC filing since I was certain they would have to test it and publish their results. The FCC test results for the ML105 headphones clearly calls out Bluetooth 5.2 as the wireless protocol used.

Now again, Bluetooth 5.2 is good. Bluetooth 5.2 is actually great. But why not just SAY that you're using it? Minelab could easily publish instructions for pairing the Manticore with 3rd party Bluetooth headsets and then clearly state that they only support the experience with their own ML105 headphones and cannot guarantee the sound quality, reliability, or latency of 3rd party headsets. They could further explain that Bluetooth 5.2 or above is strongly recommended to optimize for sound quality and latency. This gets them off the hook and gives us the ability to choose the headphones we like best. What they did instead, especially in light of the "50% more power" claims, feels like their marketing team used a standard technology, claimed they did something proprietary, and hoped none of us would notice. I was just re-watching Parks and Rec a few weeks ago, and this just feels like "T Dazzle" - the marketing term they invented to replace flouride since the town was too stupid to act in their own self-interest and so gullible that they would fall for "T Dazzle".

Again, I love my Manticore. It is a fantastic detector. Now that I moved the ML105 parts into a more comfortable headset, I'm very happy with my FrankenML105s too. What I really don't like is when companies try to pull the wool over my eyes.

 

[too_pointer]

Thank you for your info ! I agree with you, . I bought my AT Pro cause they said it was so much faster than Bluetooth. Probably not needed !
too_

 

[UT_Dave]

There is a lot of info, and even more speculation about Manticore Bluetooth on some of the forums. But a consistent theme has been nobody being able to pair the Manticore to any other devices, nor the ML105's to any other devices.

The Nordic chip used is absolutely Bluetooth LE. But I haven't heard of anyone trying to pair a BTE device, yet. They are still relatively scarce and expensive. They'll become garden variety and cheap soon enough.

My hope is that BTE devices will pair to the Manticore. But at this point, it's a slim hope.

To render the BTE implementation proprietary is trivial from the software side. Why ML would do that, I don't know - except to force customers to use third party devices rather than pay stupid ML prices for wireless options aside from the ginormous sweat generating ML105's which I personally won't even consider using in warm weather. Hope they didn't. But I've little faith that they didn't.

I kind of expect to have to run the speaker when it gets warm. Which sucks. But I'm not wearing those huge ear muffs that come with the Manticore in warm weather. No way. They are kind of nice right now when the daytime temps are around freezing or below though.

- Dave

 

[Dan(NM)]

Not one of 7 APX Low latency devices I used on my Nox would pair or connect with the Manticore. Some are speculating it's Bluetooth LE, I haven't found anyone selling headphones, transmitter/receivers or earbuds using Bluetooth LE. I haven't seen anyone else post they have connected any devise other than the ML105's to the Manticore. I ended up buying a set of Quest Wirefree Mates and use my earbuds, I dislike headphones bigly

 

[ThatGuyAgain]

Why ML would do that, I don't know

My personal theory is that it comes from a place of ensuring stability. I can only verify that which I have tested personally. So how could I as an engineer or an organization guarantee the performance of 3rd party devices?

And you’re absolutely right about making BT connectivity proprietary in software. I haven’t gone so far as to try to sniff out the BT pairing to figure out what it’s doing. Don’t know that I care enough to do that honestly. No, I do know - I don’t care enough :-P. I haven’t played around with an Ubertooth in about a decade now. But what can be limited in software can also be remedied in a patch. So I’m going to hold out hope over here :-)

 

[ThatGuyAgain]

Not one of 7 APX Low latency devices I used on my Nox would pair or connect with the Manticore. Some are speculating it's Bluetooth LE, I haven't found anyone selling headphones, transmitter/receivers or earbuds using Bluetooth LE. I haven't seen anyone else post they have connected any devise other than the ML105's to the Manticore. I ended up buying a set of Quest Wirefree Mates and use my earbuds, I dislike headphones bigly

I think UT_Dave hit the nail on the head there. They could limit the connectivity options in software.

 

[UT_Dave]

My personal theory is that it comes from a place of ensuring stability. I can only verify that which I have tested personally. So how could I as an engineer or an organization guarantee the performance of 3rd party devices?

At my job we call that call suppression. Support is a cost center. Many, many a cool feature that would cost very little from the engineering side, have I seen squashed from the business side over concerns of generating support calls. And, I get it. Those calls cost real money and if the juice isn't worth the squeeze, we don't do it. Even if it's literally free on the engineering side.

BTE of course can be backwards compatible, it's written into the spec. But it can't be low latency with non BTE devices. So again, I can see why ML wouldn't want to be backwards compatible and again, it's literally just a couple lines of code to make the implementation not backwards compatible.

With the vast majority of BT devices in the wild right now not being BTE low latency compatible, I can easily see why ML might not want to support it.

Not one of 7 APX Low latency devices I used on my Nox would pair or connect with the Manticore. Some are speculating it's Bluetooth LE, I haven't found anyone selling headphones, transmitter/receivers or earbuds using Bluetooth LE. I haven't seen anyone else post they have connected any devise other than the ML105's to the Manticore. I ended up buying a set of Quest Wirefree Mates and use my earbuds, I dislike headphones bigly

AptX is proprietary in it's own right. Devices that use it have to pay to license it. That's why it never really caught on and is taking it's dying breaths now. The Bluetooth LE on the Manticore isn't speculation, the FCC documents clearly specify the Nordic BTE chip used in the Manticore.

BTE is an open standard, supported by industry interest groups. It will be on everything and everywhere before too much longer. But it isn't right now. I have found BTE earbuds, but they are audiophile high dollar stuff (~$300). Not what we would be looking for.

We don't yet know, for sure, that the Manticore implementation of BTE won't be compatible with BTE devices. But it's sure looking that way.

- Dave

 

[Beachhunt1]

With HEARING being the MOST important item in metal detecting. I am FLOORED how many want to cut corners!

 

[too_pointer]

I have never, really, been a big fan of headphones, but think I am hurting my chances to not use them! This year, when we can can get back in the ground, need to change my ways, we don't live in a target rich spot already, I appreciate all the good info and advice in here, ( maybe you can teach an old dog, new tricks ) !!! Crazy weather this Winter, huh ?
too_

 

[Cherry Picker]

Hopping Signals: Bluetooth also uses a nifty technology called spread-spectrum frequency hopping that allows it to jump around between 79 unique frequency channels up to 1,600 times per second.

I do get tired of the marketing BS. You know they're not telling it like it is, but by manipulating how they offer the BS keeps them from being out right liers.

Minelab has always been good at keeping its tech secret. They sold BS about the 28 frequencies of FBS for 20 years. They had their own fan club swearing it was transmitting 28 frequencies. Like the Manticore, still a darn good detector and at top of the food chain, but the BS does get old.

 

[Mike K "Ohio"]

I'm very happy with my FrankenML105s

Would you mind posting a picture of them?

 

[ThatGuyAgain]

Would you mind posting a picture of them?

Absolutely. I’ll do a quick video of them once I get back in town next week

 

[ThatGuyAgain]

Video of the new Minelab x Sony hybrid monstrosities. I love these new headphones!

 

[Rudy]

... They sold BS about the 28 frequencies of FBS for 20 years. They had their own fan club swearing it was transmitting 28 frequencies. Like the Manticore, still a darn good detector and at top of the food chain, but the BS does get old.

It's not the number of frequencies transmitted that counts. What counts is the number of frequencies received AND processed. Transmitted frequencies that are not processed are just a waste of battery power.

 

[Cherry Picker]

It's not the number of frequencies transmitted that counts. What counts is the number of frequencies received AND processed. Transmitted frequencies that are not processed are just a waste of battery power.

Yup!

From Minelab.

Minelab's FBS technology simultaneously transmits 28 multiple frequencies from 1.5kHz to 100kHz. The lower the frequency used by a detector, the deeper it can penetrate. At low frequencies however, the sensitivity to small targets is sometimes reduced.

 

[Rudy]

Yup!

From Minelab.
Minelab's FBS technology simultaneously transmits 28 multiple frequencies from 1.5kHz to 100kHz. The lower the frequency used by a detector, the deeper it can penetrate. At low frequencies however, the sensitivity to small targets is sometimes reduced.

Yep, Minelab marketing does a good job of obfuscating and covering up the truth, to make it sound better than it is.