My thoughts on the Minelab Manticore

[Big Boys Hobbies]

Nice video!

 

[The Rebel]

Very interesting stuff here. I just switched from my V3i to the Manticore and need some help understanding what VDIs does iron start and end at.

I like hunting in silent mode until a good target beeps so I'm starting off at AT-Gen with the Sensitivity at 20-23, Threshold at 0. Ferrous Volume set to 0. I'm using 2 tones as anything more than that seems too confusing to me right now.

On the V, I accepted tones -10 to 99, so trying to replicate that on the manticore.

 

[AccurateCalls]

I just switched from my V3i to the Manticore and need some help understanding what VDIs does iron start and end at.

The Manticore does VDI a bit differently than other detectors. Both non-ferrous and ferrous range from 00-99 VDI, but iron will be indicated by an iron-tone or by underlining the VDI with a red line. If you have the horseshoe button engaged it will not produce any tones on iron. You can also use the 2D screen to get an indication of the iron content of the target. The further away from the center line on the 2D screen means more likely to be iron.

On the V, I accepted tones -10 to 99, so trying to replicate that on the manticore.

Admittedly I have only ever swung the V3i once in my life, so I couldn't really offer comparable settings. However, if by default the V3i accepts 0 to 99, and you lowered the discrimination to also accept -10, then something comparable on the Manticore could possibly be to decrease the upper and lower ferrous limits one or two ticks, since Ferrous limits is how the Manticore performs discrimination.

 

[The Rebel]

Thanks AC.

What I don't understand is why ML included ferrous and non-ferrous VDIs together. Whites kept iron VDIs as negative and anything else was positive.

I thought the horseshoe was to hunt in all metal only. I did set the numbers to show Red. Now I have go back and look at the manual so thanks for that information as I was wondering why I wasn't getting any Red VDIs.

I was using the center line as a guide but it was all guessing based on the shape that the trace was showing.

When I accepted the negative VDIs on the V, I set those tones to 0 (silent) so that less discrimination would give me more depth.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Seeing red ID in meter (with red ID selected). Does this mean only ferrous object exists? Nope. Beware.

 

[AccurateCalls]

What I don't understand is why ML included ferrous and non-ferrous VDIs together. Whites kept iron VDIs as negative and anything else was positive.

In my mind I interpret the Red line under the number as being the negative sign. So 60 is -60 for example.

When I accepted the negative VDIs on the V, I set those tones to 0 (silent) so that less discrimination would give me more depth.

Lowering the ferrous limits might give you slightly more 'effective depth' in mineralized soil where deep targets become ferrous tones, but the Manticore performs discrimination digitally, so whether or not discrimination is engaged has no impact on depth. It used to be that discrimination was performed using an analogue circuit that would introduce noise when the signal was passed through the chain, and thus turning it off allowed better depth without that noise, but that no longer applies to modern detectors.

Seeing red ID in meter (with red ID selected). Does this mean only ferrous object exists? Nope. Beware.

Yes of course ferrous and non-ferrous targets can be mixed together.

 

[Diga]

Seeing red ID in meter (with red ID selected). Does this mean only ferrous object exists? Nope. Beware.

Beware? That's it?

Metal detecting is a very profound endeavor. As such, I would have preferred, "Abandon hope all ye who enter"

 

[KOB]

Beware? That's it?

Metal detecting is a very profound endeavor. As such, I would have preferred, "Abandon hope all ye who enter"

That's it ! Unless of course you click on 1 of his videos.

 

[Diga]

That's it ! Unless of course you click on 1 of his videos.

You're a meany. I'm telling Mom!

 

[jmaclen]

I thought I would add some reality and one explanation to the "Beware" response and to the humor. I enjoyed the humor by the way!!!

Yes of course ferrous and non-ferrous targets can be mixed together.

Hunting in moderate to high iron mineralization, I get some non-ferrous target responses that have both black and red numbers, especially low and mid conductive targets even when they are not very deep. US modern nickels will often have a black 26 followed by a red 25 for example. This reminds me (I am not saying this is equivalent, just reminds me) of some US modern nickel responses on my E-Trac with Ferrous 12 and Conductive 13 target ID numbers simultaneously. So for the moment, I just consider those red numbers that pop up on single uncontaminated non-ferrous targets as being caused mostly by ground mineralization and target make-up. So, the red numbers are not just an indicator of a totally iron target under the coil.

 

[AccurateCalls]

I thought I would add some reality and one explanation to the "Beware" response and to the humor. I enjoyed the humor by the way!!!


Hunting in moderate to high iron mineralization, I get some non-ferrous target responses that have both black and red numbers, especially low and mid conductive targets even when they are not very deep. US modern nickels will often have a black 26 followed by a red 25 for example. This reminds me (I am not saying this is equivalent, just reminds me) of some US modern nickel responses on my E-Trac with Ferrous 12 and Conductive 13 target ID numbers simultaneously. So for the moment, I just consider those red numbers that pop up on single uncontaminated non-ferrous targets as being caused mostly by ground mineralization and target make-up. So, the red numbers are not just an indicator of a totally iron target under the coil.

If any bit of the 2D screen rendering dips into the ferrous limits, it has the potential to "mistakenly" display the red lines / numbers. That being said, a quick glance at the 2D screen immediately reveals whether the majority of the rendering is within the ferrous limits (more likely to be iron that is falsing), or if the majority is not (ferrous-alloy target / target competing with ground mineralization).

When I am searching for iron artifacts e.g. spear heads and axe blades, I turn off the ferrous limits, and use the 2D screen to determine if I am over iron or not. It should be noted that this actually disables the red lines / numbers so you will have to use the 2D screen anyway.

My advice is to not even pay attention the red numbers, the machine indicates ferrous or non-ferrous better in other ways.

 

[The Rebel]

In looking at some videos I see cross hairs on the target trace screen. Guessing that was on an older software version??

 

[AccurateCalls]

In looking at some videos I see cross hairs on the target trace screen. Guessing that was on an older software version??

It's possible its still upcoming in a software update, or that it was a feature they decided to scrap.

 

[LawrencetheMDer]

If you read one paragraph further, I actually agree with you.

Nonetheless these techniques can still be applied, with some error (this causes the reduction in performance you mention). That is why I say the goal is to minimize this error function.


Yes, see the example I described in the reply above and for a more specific example, Here in Finland we have these things called 'klippes' which are square coins cut from sheets of metal. They tend to produce a 2D screen plotting that is slightly off the center line (without knowing more about how FE/FE2 iron bias works, it's hard to say why these coins do this). This coinlike signal that appears just below the centerline is a tell-tale sign of one of these highly desirable klippes. This difference / information is not encoded in audio anywhere.

It seems FE2 (how far below the centerline line) says something above how 'plate-like' / 'sheet-like' the object is and this seems to align with the square sheet like nature of 'klippes'.

I noticed the same thing about lead fishing weights - they are tight dots that sit below the center line and can't be differentiated by sound alone, at least not with my hearing. Most lead seem to run in the 50s, but located below the center line. Very reliable. I was wondering if your plate money or klippe has any lead content?

 

[LawrencetheMDer]

AC,

Thanks for replying to my points.

Regarding EMI:

If the EMI source was narrowband, then yes, EMI mitigation is easily accomplished. Problem is, with the various EMI sources, frequencies, harmonics, etc, EMI is rarely narrowband; for all intents and purposed, EMI is random. If it were narrowband, then any EMI noise reduction, on any detector would work wonders. It wouldn't have to be a Manticore to do that noise reduction .

Yes, the possibility of a pseudo "SMF mode" for the Manti to accomplish its noise reduction, is the most likely possibility. The other possibility I gave about the sensitivity drop, is another possibility, albeit I agree that it's unlikely.

Regarding the 2D screen:

I see it as a different way to identify targets, but not necessarily "better". Like the example I gave, the 2D screen provides less information than TID and/or tones. Can you give a specific example in which the 2D screen changes your dig / no dig decision, in a way that TID and/or tones could not?

I, for one, have noticed that sinkers/fishing weights produce a nice tone, say VID of 52, BUT the 2-D image sits below the center line and is a nice tight dot. I can't tell the difference with objects that are at the same VID and tone but on the center line (eg gold ring) and a tight dot. However, my hearing is not good and like to hear from others (no pun intended) about the 2-D image of sinkers/fishing weights.
But for me, I'll take any and all available info from the detector to maximize my finds, although frankly I use tones only and dig everything on most beaches.

 

[Big Boys Hobbies]

My advice is to not even pay attention the red numbers, the machine indicates ferrous or non-ferrous better in other ways.

Great advice here!

 

[longbow62]

I've dug some deep silver with the Manticore. I've never dug a silver where the I.D. was alternating between red and black. For that matter I've never dug a silver with the Manticore where there was a crazy amount of I.D. fluctuation. With the Equinox 800 I was really good at telling deep non-ferrous from iron. I would argue Park2 was the best for telling non-ferrous from ferrous. For the longest Park2 is all I used. It was not quite as deep on silver as Park1, but I had Park2 down. The thing is with the 800 I did dig some super deep silver dimes where the I.D. did bounce quite a bit. With the Manticore I'm still learning. Yeah I've had it a year and it has not been a super easy transition from the 800. Sure I think I find as much or maybe a little more silver based on re-hunting sites previously hunted very hard with the 800. All that being said I never have totally felt as comfortable and in control with the Manticore as I did with the 800.

 

[The Rebel]

Perhaps I'm missing something but have be reading and re-reading the manual but the only way you get a red id or black with red underline id is only in all metal.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Perhaps I'm missing something but have be reading and re-reading the manual but the only way you get a red id or black with red underline id is only in all metal.

Need horseshoe on to get red ID if selected in menu.
To the poster above who says they have never dug silver coin with any red ID showing up. Did you find these coins with horseshoe on?. Using latest version with red ID activated?

I just did a video showing possible Manticore behavior (seated Dime and nail). If you care to watch.
Btw, in the video. No difference in nonferrous tonal quality be it horseshoe on or off. Granted horseshoe on does add iron tone to audio.
Also screen trace looked same or similar comparing both horseshoe on vs off.

But if a person seen Red ID at a glance after getting signal and dismissed they would be walking by a seated dime by a nail in the video.
Why I said what I did previously in the thread.

Btw the screen presentation obtained and shown in video - one can definitely see this in the wild. I have personally. Forum member Rattlehesd showed live digs with Manticore here via video. And he showed some traces looking the same or very close to what I show in video posted just few minutes ago.

 

[The Rebel]

Right. The horseshoe is all metal mode. I don't want to hunt all metal but would have liked the manticore to have positive and negative VDIs, like my V3i.

Need horseshoe on to get red ID if selected in menu.
To the poster above who says they have never dug silver coin with any red ID showing up. Did you find these coins with horseshoe on?. Using latest version with red ID activated?

I just did a video showing possible Manticore behavior (seated Dime and nail). If you care to watch.
Btw, in the video. No difference in nonferrous tonal quality be it horseshoe on or off. Granted horseshoe on does add iron tone to audio.
Also screen trace looked same or similar comparing both horseshoe on vs off.

But if a person seen Red ID at a glance after getting signal and dismissed they would be walking by a seated dime by a nail in the video.
Why I said what I did previously in the thread.

Btw the screen presentation obtained and shown in video - one can definitely see this in the wild. I have personally. Forum member Rattlehesd showed live digs with Manticore here via video. And he showed some traces looking the same or very close to what I show in video posted just few minutes ago.