.... pulling objects from the ground that no-one else cares about, ....
Well that’s not really the question here, is it? If you don’t have a valuable input, perhaps don’t input at all.
Hmmm... Re-reading your original post, IMO, it all boils down to "how to treat a property that is private, versus public" and my response about the Code of Ethics certainly DOES apply. Pretty much, without exception, any copy of a detectorists CODE of ETHICS you can find will in some form or other, say "Do not trespass; always respect private property and do no metal detecting without the owner's permission"
By the way, that last line is the first one listed in the Code of Ethics from of one of the detectors you use, the Minelab web site, https://www.minelab.com/support/customer-care-charter/code-of-ethics.
If you still believe my input had no value, please explain how your original post was NOT about detecting on private property without permission.
Almost every front yard in every historic district of every town in America is unfenced and lacks " keep out" signage. Is it Ok to metal detect those lawns until you are kicked off of them? Whether a piece of property is owned by a corporate entity, a 5th generation family farming operation or a real estate developer, private property is private property and entering private property without permission is, by definition, trespassing.If it's not fenced off and there are no signs stating private property keep out, I'd be on it in a second. Go for it until someone of authority or ownership says otherwise.
Bill
Almost every front yard in every historic district of every town in America is unfenced and lacks " keep out" signage. Is it Ok to metal detect those lawns until you are kicked off of them? Whether a piece of property is owned by a corporate entity, a 5th generation family farming operation or a real estate developer, private property is private property and entering private property without permission is, by definition, trespassing.
By your logic, unless your own front yard is fenced and signed, squatters are perfectly within their rights to camp out on your lawn until you tell them to move on. Or did I miss your point altogether?
The park rules specifically address metal detecting and clearly state that it is allowed, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.F/O : Do you think I'm making this up ?? It's wording like I linked to you that DOES INDEED give some md'rs fits.
Maybe they should read the park rules.And they fret themselves silly wondering if they can detect.
The portion I included spells out that they DO NOT want you to remove or deface, so I fail to see how this "further sinks me".The only thing your expanded copy & paste does, is simply further sink you. So I fail to see the point.
Nonsense, context is important. You can remove things, just not the things included on their list.My only point was to show that you can not "remove" things. And for that, the portion of the quote I gave was sufficient.
I guess I will correct you. I am of the opinion that one should check the Park Rules. Some Parks allow metal detecting, some do not.And correct me if I'm wrong, but you're of the opinion that we should have permission for city parks, wherever we go. Right ?
Almost every front yard in every historic district of every town in America is unfenced and lacks " keep out" signage. Is it Ok to metal detect those lawns until you are kicked off of them? ...
OP specifically asked about a "farm field" not "front yard" or "grave yard", you are taking this into the realm of the ludicrous.
....
.... one should check the Park Rules. Some Parks allow metal detecting, some do not. ....
So let me see if I understand you correctly. Tom pretty much "threatened" to contact the Parks I sometimes detect in, in a feeble attempt to demonstrate that I'm not allowed to remove things from the park. To "prove" his point, he apparently went online and looked up the rules for the park I told him about after he asked for that information...and posted this: 97.15 Park Property. No person in a park shall (A) Buildings and other property. (1) Disfiguration and removal. ...... and that was all he posted, claiming that apparently it says that I can't remove objects from the park. And you consider that a well thought out opinion?I think we can all agree that his opinion is well thought out and based on decades of experience.
How do you come to this conclusion? Nothing I've said would lead anyone seriously following this conversation to come to that conclusion.By F/O's logic, it seems to appear illegal to remove broken glass, beer cans and similar objects (a.k.a "trash"), from a park or other site.
So...don't detect on either without permission. It really is that simple.Of course it is much more nuanced. There are many shades of grey. Is a house in a development on a half acre lot with 2 kids and 2 cars the same as a random field owned by a 501(c)(3) and managed by a board of directors the same, the latter with a mission statement to provide for public recreation (including hunting)? Both are private property.
What are you talking about? But I am curious...are we talking about a deer you shot in a County Park...cuz I'm pretty sure that's illegal. Are we talking about a deer you shot on private property without having permission? Cuz I'm pretty sure that's illegal too. Are we talking about a deer you shot on property where you have permission to hunt, but the deer went onto to someone else property (for which you do not have permission) before it died..cuz retrieving that deer without obtaining permission is also illegal.Remember, removing a deer you just shot takes much more capital from the collective than removing a coin-sized object. More nuance.
I love how you guys attest false statements and conclusions to me and act like you've made a valid point.Of course, its illegal for me to remove any shell casings I find after the deer is shot, by F/O's logic, as I understand it.
How am I being pugilistic? I haven't made any threats of violence at all.Its unclear what F/O is trying to accomplish here with his pugilistic argument
I agree. But then, I wasn't the one who brought it up in the first place. That was done by the guy you think provides well thought out opinions, so maybe ask him.Perhaps that will become clear later, but arguing the details of Isabella County, Michigan, does not seem to be a path there for most readers, including, perhaps, the OP.
Wasn't it nice and informative of me to provide the entire rule, not just a portion of it, so that now you know it's perfectly legal for you to metal detect in our Country Parks, and that you can legally remove the objects you find (as long as you follow the park rules)? You're welcome.tho I'll admit that if I am ever in Isabella County again, I may know what to do
I would get rid of the last part and instead say something like: "and don't knowingly break any laws"...but that's just me.The bottom line is this: Use common sense and judgment, and do what feels right...
So...it's OK to steal objects from someone else's property, that's what you're saying? Simply saying "that no-one else cares about" is not really legal justification.This applies both to pulling objects from the ground that no-one else cares about, while remediating any damage to the turf, as well as attacking others on forums.
Correct...it's a public park, so if they don't have a rule against it, then there's no reason to believe that it is not allowed.And if it is "silent on the subject", then presto: Not disallowed. Right ?
If metal detecting is not forbidden, then there's no reason to believe that you cannot remove what you find (as long as it's not on the list of items you can't remove...like picnic tables and toilets).And we do NOT construe verbiage about "remove" and "alter/deface" to mean we need permission or clarification. Right ?
If I knew that the shortcut was across private property, there's a pretty good chance that I would not take it. If, however, one day I encountered the owner and he said something along the lines of: "No worries, everybody cuts across there", then I would probably start using it after that.As for the rest of the discussion F/O : Ok, sure. I'll grant you the utmost zeal about not stepping foot off the sidewalk anywhere. Be my guest ! You admittedly have the "high road" to which : I can't dispute. For example : You would not take the shortcut path in my previous / above picture ^ ^ . Right ?
Maybe you should strive to be a better person from here on out.To which I say : Bravo. I wish I were as good of-a-man as you are. But I'm probably one of those evil people who walked that path enough to have created it
So let's say you find a valuable gold ring, or a diamond necklace. Do you get to keep it since you found it in a farm field and not someones front yard?OP specifically asked about a "farm field" not "front yard" or "grave yard", you are taking this into the realm of the ludicrous.
Yes. And guess what...it's illegal to go over the speed limit, even if you do it out in the boonies.Have you ever gone over the speed limit, anytime, in your entire life ?
..... If I knew that the shortcut was across private property, there's a pretty good chance that I would not take it. ...
.... I find it disheartening that for some reason or another, my point of view is taken to be the silly, incorrect assessment of the situation.....
So let's say you find a valuable gold ring, or a diamond necklace. Do you get to keep it since you found it in a farm field and not someones front yard?
Yes. And guess what...it's illegal to go over the speed limit, even if you do it out in the boonies.
But let's take your analogy to it's logical conclusion as it relates the this discussion.
What if, during your act of speeding...even way out in the boonies...you cause harm to someone else. Do you just leave the scene?
I'd keep it in all cases except:....
So you would knowingly trespass, detect, and then keep items that you find?I'd keep it in all cases except:
* Had an agreement otherwise
* Was feasible to return it to its owner, class ring ect
OK...but we're not talking about finding items where you have permission, or are allowed to metal detect. Well, I'm not anyway...can't say for sure what everyone else is talking about.Every ring I have out of 100's has a story to it, has a former rightful owner who lamented the loss. Shall I have just admired them then reburied ? [Majority of rings I have found have been on the beach or tot lots]
You did not, so I was curious why you brought it up to begin with.Did I say it wasn't illegal ?
How so...please explain how I'm cherry picking laws to follow. Oh wait, I'm a selective absolutist because I occasionally break the speed limit, right? Guilty as charged. Shoot, I guess it's OK to trespass and keep items that I find then. Wow, thanks for clearing that up for me. I mean, the two are crimes are obviously synonymous, so it's a logical conclusion to reach, right?No. Point being, you apparently are a selective absolutist, cherry picking which laws to follow, or not.
Look, you're the one who posted the analogy of asking it "he" ever broke the speed limit. I was merely trying to show that you didn't carry your analogy far enough for it to actually apply to the discussion at hand.I seriously doubt I would, highly rhetorical questions are impossible to accurately answer, like asking "How do you think you would have done at Iwo Jima ?"
Have you been following this thread at all? OP asked if people felt it was OK to metal detect on private property where they do not have permission. From my very first reply, I've been trying to show that it's not the right thing to do.I'll bite, what is your attempted point ?
Why would you think that? Again, if I knew for a fact that it went across private property, the chances are pretty good that I would not trespass. I cannot speak for every possible scenario or situation that may arise though, so I cannot say with 100% complete certainty. What I can say with 100% complete certainty is that I would never knowingly metal detect on private property.AAAaaahhh, so it's only a "pretty good chance". Not a "100% chance". I would have thought there'd be a 100% chance.
Yep, I would. I'd also look to see if maybe there was someone right there in close vicinity with their wallet out or their purse open that may have dropped the $5, and ask them if it was theirs.Heck, I bet you'd even stoop over and pick up a $5 bill if you saw it there on the trail.
So...are you then saying that it's OK to detect on private property on which you do not have permission, and to keep items that you find?But let's just cut to the chase F/O : I can not dispute that no one should take that trail. I can not dispute that if you found a $5 on the trail, that you are not entitled to pick it up (aka stealing). I do not fault anyone for stepping over the $5, and/or walking around the street instead of taking the trail. I say : More power to them. Technically, you are 100% correct.
....
So...are you then saying that it's OK to detect on private property on which you do not have permission, and to keep items that you find?
So lets take this back to the discussion at hand. Do you think it's OK to detect on private property on which you do not have permission, and keep items that you find? No more hypotheticals...let's go right back to the original point of this entire thread.
Have you been following this thread at all?
It does help a little, thanks for the clarification. I guess we just have a different set of values.Discussion at hand, original point, Ok, I think I got it, let me prep myself and think ,,, 1 ,,, 2,,,, 3, here goes:
A field in the middle of nowhere, hell yeah.
But no historic front lawns.
Hope this helps.
My first post was short and to the point. When others put words into my mouth, I do my best to try to correct their errors. Accusations are easy, explanations and clarifications take more effort.You seem to be a pretty frantic guy and genuinely like to bicker...
Thanks for admitting as much.I am neither and honestly don't have alot of free time so no, have not followed every word in this thread, especially yours.
Because this is a forum about metal detecting and someone asked a question, which I answered.Don't mean to sound snarky but thats the way you are coming across to me, but be that as it may, I don't see why you are so anal about detecting rules then turn around and admit you break others -
Ummmmmm, not really. It would be a hypocritical of me to say that you shouldn't speed, but then admit that I have no problems with speeding myself. It would be hypocritical of me to say that no one should knowingly metal detect on private property without permission, but then admit that I metal detect on private property without permission all the time.That is sheer hypocrisy.
Because they are NOT the same thing. First off, in order for cutting the corner by using that trail to actually be considered as a trespass, it would either need to be posted as such (i.e. "Private Property, No Trespassing"), or the owner would have to actually tell me to not use the path. And once you've been asked to leave the property (again, assuming that it's not posted as being private property), you have to be allowed to do so before what you're doing can be considered as a trespass.On a percentage scale, I would give it the same percentage as you would, to A) take that shortcut trail, and B) pick up the $5 bill and keep it.
I realize you do NOT see the above scenario as the same as md'ing ^^
Since the property is not posted, despite an obvious trail being used by people , I think it's a fair assessment on your part to assume that the owner doesn't really care. If that owner does not care, then it's not actually considered as trespassing to use the trail.I happen to think that no one cares one-iota about taking that shortcut trail, and that no one would care one iota if you or I picked up the $5.
If we're only referring to that specific trail (i.e. not posted as private property, and also assuming that the owner is aware of the path and seemingly doesn't care) then maybe you might have a slim chance of detecting on it without any repercussions. However, what if you found a buried glass jar filled with gold coins from the 1800s? Do you think the owner would not care if you kept them? Could you legally keep them? After all, finding a five-dollar bill on the surface of the ground is NOT the same things as digging a hole and finding something of value.To me, *that* is the test of things. And the same "test" would apply to metal detecting that trail : If no one cared, then by golly ..... no one cared.
I think one has to look at each scenario separately and stop trying to conflate totally different situations as if they're equivalent.BUT I REALIZE THIS DOESN'T PASS the technical legal test ![/B] In the same way that *technically* you should not take the path, you should not pick up the $5, etc.... To which I say again : The world would be a better place if no one stepped off the sidewalks. I don't disagree.
But you're not being realistic. Cutting a corner by using a well worn and obvious trail is no where near the same thing as metal detecting on private property and keeping what you find...even if that property is out in the boonies. One of them is likely not even a crime, while the other is most definitely a criminal offense...I hope you can figure out which is which.I'm just trying to sort "realistic" vs "technical".