The steady march of technology’s effect on our hobby

[maxxkatt]

Think about what processing power we have in our detectors like the XP Deus and Equinox 800. I would rather venture they have more power than the computer on Apollo 11 and the first IBM PC.

Apollo 11 was landed on the moon using a computer that had 1,300 times less than the processing power of the iPhone 5s.

We take this technology for granted, but it is making waves everywhere we look and obsoleting many things.

For instance, I enjoy listening to short wave radio. Not too long ago (six years) I bought a used Yaesu-7700 digital receiver for about $500 and had to erect two long wire antennas the trees in my back yard to get the desired coverage.

Now I can just use software defined radio for free at websdr.org. No radio, no antenna, just my personal computer. Or if I wish to listen to police, railroad, aviation radio I don’t have to buy an expensive scanner and put up an antenna. I just tune in for free with my iPhone on www.broadcastify.com. So I now don’t have to spend up to $700 for used equipment and mess with outdoor antennas.

This technological march has taken over our metal detecting hobby and those who don’t move to the new digital detectors are going to get left behind the hobbyist that embrace the new digital multi-frequency digital detectors. The secret sauce for these new digital metal detectors are the audio processing circuits and software designed by experts like Bruce Candy at Minelab and his team.

There are many reports of detectorists going back over well hunted ground and pulling out more coins with these modern digital multi-frequency detectors compared to older single frequency VLF detectors.

I admit that you can go over previously hunted grounds with the same detector and pull out additional coins. But not the quantity and depth recovered a modern digital multi-frequency detector.

The big question is what will Garrett do? They are falling behind in this race with their ACE and AT Pro series. The AT Max really didn’t bring much more to the table in terms of improvement over the AT Pro.

If they don’t have the experienced digital engineers like Bruce Candy, they better start recruiting some today.

The question that looms is what are the new features that Garrett must come up with in a new digital multi-frequency replacement for the AT Pro and AT Max?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... There are many reports of detectorists going back over well hunted ground and pulling out more coins with these modern digital multi-frequency detectors compared to older single frequency VLF detectors. ...

M-Katt, this needs a bit of clarification:

In a lot of the instances, ..... yes ...... someone gets the new "latest greatest", and finds more goodies at his previously hammered spots. But this can be explained, to some extent, that he is simply using a machine that is DIFFERENT than his prior arsenal. NOT that the technology ability WASN'T there, in other previously existing technology.

My hunting partner and I are experiencing this right now: There are sites where I used to "spank" his past several machines with my Explorer II . But then he upped to a nox 800, and now, yes... as you say..... he tallies increase in ghost-townsy nail-ridden, or mineralized alkali conditions, where his previous choice machines weren't doing as well.

In a way, you could say that the technology of this "latest greatest" changed his results. But in ANOTHER way, it could be argued that the same difficult targets could have been had by various 2-filter machines (tesoros that see through nails well, yet lack depth), or the Explorer II (which is very good in minerals and alkali soil). The only thing that the 800 added, was sort of a cross-over ability. NOT a "new mousetrap" , that someone couldn't have availed themselves of, with the right machine , that could be a decade, or two decades, or even three decades old.

 

[pryan67]

Keep in mind also that when one gets a new machine, they tend to be more careful with it...going slower...paying more attention...trying to learn the language of the new machine, so a target that may have been iffy when they swung their old coil over it, they pay more attention to and decide to dig it.

 

[Mud-puppy]

The Bummer is we are engaged in a non-replenshing target negative outdoor pursuit situation...It aint like fishing or hunting where the ecosystem replenishes year after year and maybe advanced tech can assist...In the case of Metal Detecting, in most locations, theres nothing left to find no matter what advanced technology comes along.....Not enough to make it pay anyhow....

I watched a dealie last night on Nat Geo, flying LIDAR over the Yucatan, and here were all these hidden ancient Mayan structures exposed! ..Now that would be an example of advanced tech proving helpful!

A guy has a hard time finding 70's/80's/90's era massive clad jackpots let alone virgin fields of silver....So whats a guy to do? Chasing a declining and non replenishing target? No tech can assist in a meaningful way...

The gear we got now is as good as it gets, so a guy gets good and fast employing it in the limited time and tech we have on this Planet....Ya play the weather and find the blowouts and be in the right location on the perfect days....Under the restrictions of 'Big Place, Small Coils, Short Time'...You get what you can Metallic or go back to ripping bluegills...Its understandable that some guys give up completely and golf, CS reject tray, Thrift shop or garage sale, or CRH..Hell, I'm pulling empty cans and eating roadkill for Petes sake!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Keep in mind also that when one gets a new machine, they tend to be more careful with it...going slower...paying more attention...trying to learn the language of the new machine, so a target that may have been iffy when they swung their old coil over it, they pay more attention to and decide to dig it.

Yes. That kind of like the phenomenon of subconscious memory bias. If your entire POINT of using a new machine is "what will it find ?", then you will tend to remember those targets, as opposed to normally recurring finds, you might have made with your old machine. And yes, be concentrating harder, digging more iffy signals in the first place (since you're learning the sounds, you take less short-cuts, etc...).

So the best way to know , is to flag un-dug targets, with a machine whose language your thoroughly know. Then try with the new machine, and ask yourself "would I have heard that ?". And do the same in the vice-versa order as well.

 

[woodbutcher]

M-Katt, this needs a bit of clarification:

In a lot of the instances, ..... yes ...... someone gets the new "latest greatest", and finds more goodies at his previously hammered spots. But this can be explained, to some extent, that he is simply using a machine that is DIFFERENT than his prior arsenal. NOT that the technology ability WASN'T there, in other previously existing technology.

My hunting partner and I are experiencing this right now: There are sites where I used to "spank" his past several machines with my Explorer II . But then he upped to a nox 800, and now, yes... as you say..... he tallies increase in ghost-townsy nail-ridden, or mineralized alkali conditions, where his previous choice machines weren't doing as well.

In a way, you could say that the technology of this "latest greatest" changed his results. But in ANOTHER way, it could be argued that the same difficult targets could have been had by various 2-filter machines (tesoros that see through nails well, yet lack depth), or the Explorer II (which is very good in minerals and alkali soil). The only thing that the 800 added, was sort of a cross-over ability. NOT a "new mousetrap" , that someone couldn't have availed themselves of, with the right machine , that could be a decade, or two decades, or even three decades old.

I believe this is spot on..And not only with a (new technology) machine either Tom,I think all machines read differently also..I’ve taken the latest out and came in behind it with old tech and recovered coins and jewlery that wasn’t seen for whatever reason by new technology..But then again I’ve found stuff at pounded sites with newer technology machines...Main reason why I don’t care what I swing,I’m finding stuff regardless,and one machine cannot see it all.

 

[maxxkatt]

I agree with all of the replies so far. I just used the 800 as an example of the new technology.

The question really is with the new digital multi-frequency technology and
the Bruce Candy audio processing circuits used in the Equinox machines, what is Garrett going to do? it seems at the moment Garret is stuck with some good, but older technology. It seems like with our hobby that is reaching a point of diminishing returns and the increase in technology not only helps us find some heretofore unreachable targets but also aids in the scarcity of our good targets.

I agree the less hard core detectorists will eventually retire their detectors to the closet and pursue a more rewarding hobby. I certainly find more silver in Coinstar machines each month than metal detecting. But that is not really fun. It is more like a operating bread route than treasure hunting. Same thing with hunting thrift stores. No skill require other than knowing which items to look for that you can buy sell for a nice profit on eBay.

For me personally each hunt is truly a treasure hunt. It taps into my inner kid where I always thought it was so neat to be able to see underground so to speak. Kind of like Superman and his X-ray visions. You hope each signal that you think is good will be the real thing. In reality here in the areas that I hunt, the odds are against it being a good target.

I would say my good find ratio to junk is easily 1:50-100. But then there have been days when in the first 10 minutes of a hunt I find a heavy .925 silver bracelet.

Maybe that is why it so appealing because you have to use skill in locating good places to hunt and skill with your particular machine and it is also part lottery.

Still my unanswered question what will Garrett do with their aging ACE and AT line? Garrett is a formidable company, but will they just cede the hobby part of their business to other companies like Minelab?

 

[jwp1964]

The Bummer is we are engaged in a non-replenshing target negative outdoor pursuit situation...It aint like fishing or hunting where the ecosystem replenishes year after year and maybe advanced tech can assist...In the case of Metal Detecting, in most locations, theres nothing left to find no matter what advanced technology comes along.....Not enough to make it pay anyhow....

I watched a dealie last night on Nat Geo, flying LIDAR over the Yucatan, and here were all these hidden ancient Mayan structures exposed! ..Now that would be an example of advanced tech proving helpful!

A guy has a hard time finding 70's/80's/90's era massive clad jackpots let alone virgin fields of silver....So whats a guy to do? Chasing a declining and non replenishing target? No tech can assist in a meaningful way...

The gear we got now is as good as it gets, so a guy gets good and fast employing it in the limited time and tech we have on this Planet....Ya play the weather and find the blowouts and be in the right location on the perfect days....Under the restrictions of 'Big Place, Small Coils, Short Time'...You get what you can Metallic or go back to ripping bluegills...Its understandable that some guys give up completely and golf, CS reject tray, Thrift shop or garage sale, or CRH..Hell, I'm pulling empty cans and eating roadkill for Petes sake!

Hit on an issue that has me down this year. I spend more and more time with less return than ever even though tech is better. Truth is that this has been a hobby for about 50 years and there is less and less to be found with more people pursuing it. I'm tired of hearing "it's been hunted many times, but have at it". I'm tired of grinding the same public ground over and over.

I will probably be cutting back significantly on number of outings and just doing a few road trips a year to states where there is more lost stuff due to history and prosperity in that particular area.

I'll be here commenting on all the great finds, but you'll be seeing less finds posts from me.

 

[Cal_Cobra]

Yes computer power has not only grown exponentially in flops, but it's so inexpensive now that computers are in everything from toasters and watches to toothbrushes, car, etc., but that's common knowledge.

Metal detectors have benefited from this technology, in more ways then just increased speed. As computer power gets faster and cheaper, new analysis algorithms can be implemented. Nokta makes a detector that can literally show you in 3D what's in the ground. It's only $10,000 and requires an analyzer box (like a bulky laptop), but it's only a matter of time until that awesome technology is in a handheld detector.

Simultaneous multi-frequency detectors, such as the Equinox (the Explorer and CTX are technically not SMF detectors, they fire rapid pulses on different frequencies, but not at once) are great for mineralized soil conditions. That was the main reason I picked up the EQ800 that Tom_in_CA alluded to in his post. When I started hunting with Tom I had a Fisher Coin$trike, it was my first detector and it was a handful for a newbie! I tried a few others and kind of settled on a Fisher F75 LTD at about the time that Tom and I started focusing on relic sites. I did OK with it, but as Tom noted, 9 out of 10 times he'd kick my butt. I tried other detectors, AT Pro, Omega, etc., Their all OK in their own right, but the one thing they do NOT do well in is mineralized California soils. Then several years ago I heard of this newer company called Nokta/Makro. And one thing I learned as I was trying other detectors was that just because it worked great in Florida inert sandy soil, didn't mean squat as to how it would work in mineralized California soil. BIG LESSON LEARNED. I started to learn of hunters on the left coast using these new Nokta/Makro detectors and claiming they were doing really well with them, so I decided to jump on the Makro Red Racer when it first came out. It was an amazing machine, my dead sites came back to life. A site I hadn't found silver at in years, produced two silver coins and two IHPs on my first hunt! That trend continued, and when I got the Racer 2 and took it to the previously left for dead site, I had my best hunt day ever there, four old silvers, IHPs, early teens wheaties, buffaloes, I think I had 11-12 old coins in one hunt and that was my best hunt there ever. Once I had the Red Racer, my finds went up significantly, and I found that I was was either besting Tom or at least on par with his number of conductors on our hunts. Now that said, I'm not sure I can solely give the detectors credit, as I was also learning how to hunt in iron better, and honing in my skills, but to be sure I did several comparisons between these Nok/Mak detectors and my F75 LTD/LTD2, and each and every time my Nok/Mak machines spanked the poor F75. Don't get me wrong, I found my fair share of finds with the F75, but it was no match for the Nok/Mak machines IN MY DIRT. I realize some others have had the opposite experience, so YOUR DIRT matters!

That theme continued with the Impact and Multi Kruzer, but I realized that at our sites that had heavy mineralization, Tom and others with the FBS/BBS Minelabs had zero issues with the mineralization. At a couple of sites in particular, my VLF single freq detectors were severely handicapped, I had to really work to get my targets. I could keep up with Tom, but what was for me a total !!!! signal was a great signal for him. Sometimes I'd simply get a tick, and scrape dirt off and play around with the signal to try to bring it in better, only to dig it and get an eagle button or a 3-ringer or whatnot. One site was so mineralized that I couldn't even ground balance, we have some nasty mineralization out here.

I had for the most part stayed away from the Minelabs due to their weight. When the Equinox was announced and we started to learn about it, some detectorists on the left coast that were field testing it had great things to say about it. OK, waterproof, lightweight, and new SMF technology from Minelab and at the price of a mid-level detector, I gotta try this!

Yes you could say in the beginning that you go slower learning the detector, that could well be true of my first couple of hunts, but at subsequent hunts my confidence grew and the finds just kept on coming, I wasn't going any slower than Tom or using one of my VLF detectors. So while I do not recommend that anyone race out and buy any specific detector, because it may or may not work in your dirt at the types of sites you like to hunt, and some people are diehards, they claim the Equinox isn't that great and stick with their CTX. I guess if I paid $2500 for a CTX, I'd probably be defending it as well. Tom does great with his vintage Explorer2, even though everyone says their not good in iron, he's done very well with it at ghost town relic sites and stage stops.

Also, I find that each detector does things differently, if you hunted a site out with detector X, and then took detector Y there, it may well light up the site again. I saw that phenomenon play out several times, yet there are certain detectors that really outshine others in my experience.

Anyhow, that's my story and I'm sticking to it - lol

 

[FreeBirdTim]

I prefer to spend my time hunting and researching sites and not worrying about Garrett's "aging" line of detectors. I'm also too busy cataloging my drawer full of colonial coins and relics that I've found with my AT Pro! Lol!

Since almost all of my 1700's coins and relics were found on public land that has been hunted to death, I would say that Garrett's line of detectors are far from obsolete...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Anyhow, that's my story and I'm sticking to it - lol

Good post. Looking forward to some tech. comparison over flagged targets, in some upcoming hunts !

 

[maxxkatt]

I think Cal_cobra got to the real heart of why some favor brand x and will stick to it no matter what new technology comes out. It is because in their dirt their brand x detector just simply works and works well for them so why change. A very valid reason for sticking with brand x.

Brad of green mountain metal detecting will probably stay with his AT Pro for a long time. He knows it inside and out, his dirt is way up in the mountains and his junk does not included can slaw, pop tops, pull tabs, bobby pins, screw tops, coke bottle caps and other modern trash. Most of his junk is shotgun stamps and rifle cartridges. The rest are coins and buttons and artifacts from the 1700-1800. So his dirt is perfect for the AT Pro. He would be stupid to change and waste his time learning the 800.

But detectorists in CA who wish to hunt the beach, deserts and other areas that are highly mineralized will tend to look for the technological edge to cut thru the mineralization problem.

In north Atlanta I used the AT Pro for 3 years. but the 800 does a better job for me where silver coins are rare and good civil war relic hunting sites are almost impossible to locate and get permission because of the huge northward development of the suburbs of Atlanta since the late 1960's. So I was looking for a technological edge to increase my good finds.

But that technological edge comes at a high cost of dealing with a higher learning curve than with the AT Pro.

Please keep in mind I am not picking on the AT Pro. It is a very good time proven machine but has some limitations compared to a CTX3030, e-Track or 800. I am new to the Minelab family and several times in the past year, I was thinking of selling my 800. Mainly because I really did not know how to use it effectively other than firing it up in park1 and hunting. There is a lot more to the 800 than the default settings.

If I did not like the AT Pro in particular and Garrett in general, I would not give one thought about what they are going to release in their replacement to the AT PRO and Max. Maybe Garrett is seeing the downward trends in our hobby and concentrating their resources on military and industrial detectors. With all the crime and terrorist in the world, that would be a better financial use of their resources.

 

[relichead]

Think about what processing power we have in our detectors like the XP Deus and Equinox 800. I would rather venture they have more power than the computer on Apollo 11 and the first IBM PC.

Apollo 11 was landed on the moon using a computer that had 1,300 times less than the processing power of the iPhone 5s.

We take this technology for granted, but it is making waves everywhere we look and obsoleting many things.

For instance, I enjoy listening to short wave radio. Not too long ago (six years) I bought a used Yaesu-7700 digital receiver for about $500 and had to erect two long wire antennas the trees in my back yard to get the desired coverage.

Now I can just use software defined radio for free at websdr.org. No radio, no antenna, just my personal computer. Or if I wish to listen to police, railroad, aviation radio I don’t have to buy an expensive scanner and put up an antenna. I just tune in for free with my iPhone on www.broadcastify.com. So I now don’t have to spend up to $700 for used equipment and mess with outdoor antennas.

This technological march has taken over our metal detecting hobby and those who don’t move to the new digital detectors are going to get left behind the hobbyist that embrace the new digital multi-frequency digital detectors. The secret sauce for these new digital metal detectors are the audio processing circuits and software designed by experts like Bruce Candy at Minelab and his team.

There are many reports of detectorists going back over well hunted ground and pulling out more coins with these modern digital multi-frequency detectors compared to older single frequency VLF detectors.

I admit that you can go over previously hunted grounds with the same detector and pull out additional coins. But not the quantity and depth recovered a modern digital multi-frequency detector.

The big question is what will Garrett do? They are falling behind in this race with their ACE and AT Pro series. The AT Max really didn’t bring much more to the table in terms of improvement over the AT Pro.

If they don’t have the experienced digital engineers like Bruce Candy, they better start recruiting some today.

The question that looms is what are the new features that Garrett must come up with in a new digital multi-frequency replacement for the AT Pro and AT Max?

I was thinking the same thing as far as garrett is concerned ..it will be interesting to see their next move ...i cant see them releasing another machine in the same control box and different frequency ...there cant be any question the sales of the at pro and max have taken a SERIOUS hit since the nox was released.....i cant believe til this day they havent got rid of the ugly yellow of the ace lineup...if they dont start looking outside the box...i can see another tesoro situation coming...theres no question they must have made a ton of money with the amount of at pro/gold machines they sold in last half decade or so...they better do some R&D ...

 

[maxxkatt]

I was thinking the same thing as far as garrett is concerned ..it will be interesting to see their next move ...i cant see them releasing another machine in the same control box and different frequency ...there cant be any question the sales of the at pro and max have taken a SERIOUS hit since the nox was released.....i cant believe til this day they havent got rid of the ugly yellow of the ace lineup...if they dont start looking outside the box...i can see another tesoro situation coming...theres no question they must have made a ton of money with the amount of at pro/gold machines they sold in last half decade or so...they better do some R&D ...

There might be a Tesoro situation for the hobby division, but not for Garrett overall.

 

[Cal_Cobra]

I was thinking the same thing as far as garrett is concerned ..it will be interesting to see their next move ...i cant see them releasing another machine in the same control box and different frequency ...there cant be any question the sales of the at pro and max have taken a SERIOUS hit since the nox was released.....i cant believe til this day they havent got rid of the ugly yellow of the ace lineup...if they dont start looking outside the box...i can see another tesoro situation coming...theres no question they must have made a ton of money with the amount of at pro/gold machines they sold in last half decade or so...they better do some R&D ...

Garrett may be lackluster in innovation (been more of a follower then a leader over the past ten years from my POV), but one thing that Garret excels at is marketing. You can have the best mouse trap on the planet, but if you don't market it, it won't sell, whereas on the flip side of that you can have a mediocre product and market the hell out of it and sell tons of them.

Why do you think just about every metal detecting TV program the actors are featured with Garrett's? Even the high hit rate YouTube actors are using Garrett's. Heck one of the most popular YouTube programs started off with them all using different machines and slowly they all switched to Garrett's...hmmm...wonder why that was (coincidence they are also now featured on the box of the ATM?)

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the Garretts, if it works for you, awesome. I had an ATP when they first came out, and it was decent, the iron audio in pro mode was excellent, it unmasked silver that my F75 was completely blind to. My main issue, was it didn't get good depth IN MY DIRT and the display was so small I could barely see what was going on. As the ATM is fairly new, it'll likely be a few years before we see another new machine from them, but it'll be interesting to see if they evolve from follower to innovator. Lots of innovation going on over seas, not so much in the U.S. unfortunately.

Perhaps we'll see the big three U.S. metal detector companies at Capitol Hill with their hands out in the future