Success Rate?

[kweis]

If your going after local permissions always best in person. More respect and would get taken more seriously that way. In my job before retirement from state government dealing with private land owners for 40 years it's always best to make contact in person even if they don't live there. You can get current owner address on line through the property tax office web page. A written letter would be my last resort. But just my two cents worth.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... Literally all public ground in my area is off-limits....

So you think that all public grounds , around/near you, are "off-limits" ? Federal, state, city, and county lands, are all "off-limits to md'ing" ?

Do you have laws to cite, that specifically say "no md'ing", to substantiate that ? Ie.: Where are you getting the information that all-public-land around you is off-limits to md'ing ?

Unless you can point to a law(s) that truly said "no md'ing", then .... no, they're not off-limits to md'ing. If it's not specifically prohibited, then it's not dis-allowed.

So please let us know where you are getting this information that "all public land around you is off-limits".

 

[Tom_in_CA]

If your going after local permissions always best in person. ...

Sometimes a fast way to accomplish this, in small "Mayberry RFD" type rural country areas, is the following :

If my buddy and I want to make quick work of tracking down names (so as to "name-drop"), we try to make note of where it appears that all the locals eat out at. Ie.: the local diner, where ... no doubt, the farmers get their coffee in the morning, or eat or drink at night. We make a point to eat at these "locals-joints" spots. Then, while sporting million dollar smiles, we strike up conversation with the waitress : "Hey, would you happen to know who owns the field just to the south of this diner ?". And/or "we're in town doing historical research on an article we're writing. Do you happen to know who owns the land behind the water tower on the other side of the RR tracks over there ?", etc....

And invariably, they will either know, or refer you to their boss who knows, blah blah. Then you also make note of their name.

Now you have "names to drop". Eg.: "So & so at the diner said you might know about the stage stop that was said to have been here", blah blah.

 

[Silver Shroud]

So you think that all public grounds , around/near you, are "off-limits" ? Federal, state, city, and county lands, are all "off-limits to md'ing" ?



Do you have laws to cite, that specifically say "no md'ing", to substantiate that ? Ie.: Where are you getting the information that all-public-land around you is off-limits to md'ing ?



Unless you can point to a law(s) that truly said "no md'ing", then .... no, they're not off-limits to md'ing. If it's not specifically prohibited, then it's not dis-allowed.



So please let us know where you are getting this information that "all public land around you is off-limits".

All of this is listed on our federal parks, local parks, and city ordinances.

I do have a question for you. If public land doesn’t have something displayed/listed you will detect it?


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[Tom_in_CA]

All of this is listed on our federal parks, local parks, and city ordinances....

Huh ? Just curious : What city is it, that you say you've found the specific "No md'ing" rule. I'd be curious to search their muni-codes for myself, and see what you're referring to.

If it's true, that every single speck of land (fed, state, county, and city) ALL have "no md'ing prohibitions", then .... I have a sneaking suspicion of how that came to be. But first, I'd like to look into this myself. What city and what county are you in ?

And you're not referring to ambiguous catch-all verbiage like "harvest and remove", or "alter and deface" are you ?

.... I do have a question for you. If public land doesn’t have something displayed/listed you will detect it? ....

You are asking a 2-part question. Because when you say "Displayed", I'm assuming you mean: The wooden sign at the park. Right ? Eg.: Dogs on leash, closes at sunset, etc... Right ?

But when you say "Listed", I'm assuming you're referring to something that is perhaps on the books down at city hall, yet not necessarily on the wooden sign at the park entrance ?

To answer your questions: When I go city to city (like when traveling) I do not hesitate to hit any park I come to. Unless there were a sign saying "no md'ing". And assuming, of course, that it's not an obvious historic sensitive monument.

But you are absolutely right, that perhaps it's not on the sign, yet *could* conceivably be in the minutia at city hall, right ? Personally I don't fret myself to that degree. But if a person is skittish, they can check out city muni park codes for themselves. In this digital age we live in, most every city has their charter, their muni codes, their park rules, etc.... somewhere available for viewing. Like on their website somewhere.

If it's a super small city or county that simply never put their charter, codes, laws, rules, etc.... on-line, then you can accomplish it this way: When you go to city hall, you DON'T ask "Hi, can I metal detect ?". Lest you become the latest victim of "No one cared till you asked" safe-answer routine. Instead you say: Where can I find a list of all the municipal laws, rules for park -usage, etc.... Because it MUST exist in print-form somewhere. Eg.: In binder form down at city hall or the library. Or they'll give you the direct link. And then once you have the comprehensive list, if it doesn't mention md'ing (ie.: is silent on the subject), then presto: Not disallowed.

 

[Mud-puppy]

You might not have to worry about getting permissions at all this Summer!...Sorta looks like folks will have more pressing things to worry about than an old guy detecting in a 'No Detecting' park...So hey!...This could be your Big Year!

 

[Silver Shroud]

So, there are signs that say no altering/digging in the park in a few of the ones I’ve gone to. I’ve been told by the city that is also in the ordinances but haven’t been able to find it.

I spoke with the mayor he was told the same thing. I cannot dig/alter the ground.

I live in Iowa city IA (Johnson county). Tom, if you’re able to help that would be much appreciated. My dear is that they press charges on me if I did it because they’ve told me I can’t, even if it’s not fully written out in all parks or specifically listed in the ordinances.

I’m curious what my legal rights are if this is the case? Can I detect/dig in near by towns with nothing listed? Are city codes/ordinances different in print than they might be online?


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[Wmass guy]

We can detect on private property, the town itself is rather interesting though. I’ve asked many land owners in town through work and all of them had said no because of “historic significance”.


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Craziness! I don’t get why people would rather have something rot away into the ground than to have someone else find it. yet I’m sure at least some of them loathe litter and pollution just like me! Are not lost/buried or discarded heavy metals pollution?

 

[Mud-puppy]

Imagine the Court room Laughter! Heres a room full of serious cases to be heard, drug dealers, open warrants, drunk drivers, various other societal reprobates...Then you step up when its your turn...

The Judge hollers...."What are the charges against this old Man?" Prosecutor: "Your Honor, he was apprehended out digging around in the local park with a garden tool looking for pennies" .....

Judge: "You gottabeshiddin me?!"

Prosecutor: "Indeed I am NOT Sir! Furthermore, He is a abrogocious repeat offender!" "He has exhibited a complete disdain for the Law and disregarded all posted signs to the contrary!" "Plus, he was in possession of an AtPro!

Judge: "OK, Its the death penalty then! ...not for him, but for you!"

Silvershroud, Hunt away! NOBODIES ever gonna ever cuff and stuff some Old guy dikking around looking for pennies! ! Especially not a taxpayer!

'Laws' have wiggle room..Age has benefits...after a certain point, a guy can do about whatever the hell they want...Make the most of it...Time and Treasure waits for Nobody!

 

[Silver Shroud]

Thank you for your kind works Mud Puppy. The only downside here is that I’m 30. This might be working against me here and the fact that I’ve grown up and lived in this town my whole life. They might hit me with, “you’ve lived here, you know better” plus “you’re young, don’t have anything better to be doing with your time than destroying our parks?”


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[Tom_in_CA]

silver-shroud, thanks for getting back to me on those questions . And, as I suspected, there is no actual rules or laws that *specifically* say "No metal detecting".

..... I’ve been told by the city that is also in the ordinances but haven’t been able to find it.....

Instead, you are bumping into the boiler plate verbiage :

So, there are signs that say no altering/digging in the park in a few of the ones I’ve gone to.....

I've got news for you. If that equates to "no metal detecting", then: It's not just YOUR area that's "off-limits". It would be every single park across the entire USA. Because I assure you that similar language exists in every single park. Of every single entity. Aka: "alter", "deface", "destroy", and sometimes even the word "dig" is used.

Yet a quick look at any md'ing forums show & tell sections, shows NO LACK of md'rs who detect in parks. Right ? Are they all law-breakers ? How do they do it ?

Here's the trick: All such boiler plate language INHERENTLY applies to the END result. Right ? So when you leave no trace of your presence (ie.: cover, stomp, and fluff up your spots), then presto: You haven't alterED, or defacED anything. Right ? And yes, I'd even apply that logic to dIg vs dUg . Here's why : That's merely a spelling issue. Ie.: we don't say diggED, as a past tense of dig.

Is that to say that everyone in the world will agree with these semantics ? Of course not. So go at lower traffic times and avoid such kill-joys.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Then you go on to spell out the rest of your angst, which I suspected:

.... I spoke with the mayor he was told the same thing. I cannot dig/alter the ground....

This is what I term the "No one cared till you asked" routine. It works like this : There will be a place where md'ing is common place. And no one's ever had a problem or issue. Until the day that someone shows up at the park's dept (or mayor, or police, or ranger kiosk, etc...) and asks "Hi, can I metal detect ?". Then it goes downhill from there. Whomever you're asking has images of geeks with shovels. So they simply pass out the "easy" answer. Even though, truth be told, they probably would never have paid any mind to it.

Because, ... think of it: THE MERE FACT that anyone thinks they have to go to an authority figure asking if they can do something, has implications. It implies that something is wrong with the activity . Ie.: harmful, dangerous, risky, or whatever. Lest .... why ELSE would you be standing their asking ? Ie.: No one asks to do harmless benign activities. Right ? Like "hi, can I fly a frisbee in the park ?", or "hi, can I birdwatch in the park?". Thus the implication , when someone comes in asking if they can do an odd-ball activity, simply implies that something is amiss . Lest, why else would you be asking ? So the wheels in the hearer's brain starts looking for whatever is supposedly bad about. And naturally, the mental connotation is holes, eh ? So guess what the easy answer will be ?

And then the danger becomes : Guess what happens when that same desk jockey is driving by the park, the following week, and sees an md'r in the park ? He'll remember the earlier inquiry, and start booting others ! I've seen this happen before. And we trace it back to someone who went swatting hornet's nests.

For example, it happened in my city, decades ago, where a well-meaning sincere md'r went to city hall, to inquire about md'ing in our parks. Someone there told him "no". Imagine his surprise, when he joined our local club, and saw items on the show & tell table, where the guys were saying "found in Central park ". That was 30+ years ago. And ... to this day, we can detect parks here (as long as you're not sticking out like a total eyesore nuisance) and .... no one cares.

 

[ToySoldier]

So, there are signs that say no altering/digging in the park in a few of the ones I’ve gone to.......

First off, I don't think I've ever seen a post that will push so many of Tom's buttons at once. I'm going to post the following, and then slowly back out of the room.

It only took a few minutes to find the regs for your county and city parks.

Your county parks allow metal detecting, but no digging. Not much fun in that unless you're only interested in recent jewelry drops. But, the sight of somebody with a detector is not enough to get booted. Link to county park rules.

https://www.johnson-county.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=7044

Your city parks do not have any specific ordinances for metal detecting. They have the common "will not destroy stuff" language that's present in every city in the United States. I don't accept that metal detecting causes damage no matter what, no matter how or where its done in a park. Apparently that's true because not all cities interpret that same language to always apply to metal detecting. I know I've been watched in parks and then left alone. I sure as heck don't act like I'm in some farm field. You're on your own, but I suggest not arguing or pointing out you only thought it was OK because of their lack of signs and rules posted on their website. Somebody could change that in a few days and now it's no longer a matter of interpretation.

Link to city park rules:

https://www.sterlingcodifiers.com/codebook/getBookData.php?chapter_id=76515

You're also in a pretty well developed area with lots of old private homes and farms. You just have to get out there. 95% of my detecting is on private land.

 

[Mud-puppy]

Thank you for your kind works Mud Puppy. The only downside here is that I’m 30. This might be working against me here and the fact that I’ve grown up and lived in this town my whole life. They might hit me with, “you’ve lived here, you know better” plus “you’re young, don’t have anything better to be doing with your time than destroying our parks?”


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OK...Yep.30 yrs old? Dont even try it! Theres some other old guy out hunting those places! He never bothered to ask anybody and doesnt have a care in the World! Thats nice...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

First off, I don't think I've ever seen a post that will push so many of Tom's buttons at once. ....

haha, yes as Toy-Soldier alludes to, this is a "bee in my bonnet"

.... https://www.johnson-county.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=7044.....

Good sleuthing job. Oddly, this has an express ALLOWANCE for md'ing (beats being "silent on the subject", eh ?) . As for the followup of "no digging", I would bet that as long as you leave no marks, that'll suffice as compliant.

A few other notes about this: 1) This would only apply to county run parks. Not other types (eg.: city, state, etc....) 2) The fact that md'ing did get specifically addressed here, I'll bet that the origin of that, is past md'rs going in asking. And then one day, they figure "lets' make a rule". Obviously it would have been better to have been silent on the subject, but it is interesting that, instead, they give it an express allowance. Can't argue with that ! Just don't be in the middle of deep retrievals when/if busy-bodies are watching.

....https://www.sterlingcodifiers.com/codebook/getBookData.php?chapter_id=76515 .....

Yup. Silent on the subject for city-level parks there. You can do ctrl F and search for "metal" and "detectors" , etc.... And nothing comes up.

Thus not prohibited. And nor do I construe alter/deface language to apply either, as long as we leave no trace of our presence.

good job toy-soldier.

 

[Silver Shroud]

Yes thank you everyone for your input and work on this.

I think moving forward I will avoid my city parks due to the fact that if for some reason the individuals I saw/spoke with saw me, there might be bigger trouble coming my way. Instead, I think I will apply this to smaller towns with city ordinances that don’t indicate anything in their codes about digging altering. I think it is safe to detect and retrieve as long as it isn’t in their codes and there are no signs in the park.


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[Tom_in_CA]

.... with city ordinances that don’t indicate anything in their codes about digging altering.....

silver-shroud : You're not going to find any parks, anywhere, that don't have some form or fashion of wording to those effects. Every single park in the USA has something about alter, deface, destroy, etc.... But as long as you leave no trace of your presence, then you've abided by them.

So go out and detect. Don't over-think it.

 

[Nerdling]

Those same no digging rules apply for the towns around me and not once have I ever been hassled any of the parks guys. If anything I have had them say they don’t mind as long as all holes are filled back in. Although I also tend to detect the parks early on weekends due to having a toddler at homes. The one I see around here most often is this one “No person shall dig up, deface, or remove any dirt, stones, rock or other substance whatever, make any excavation, quarry any stone, lay or set off any blast, roll any stones or other objects, or cause or assist in doing any of said things, in any park area“ Funny thing is this rule is at just about every county park along the river, where gasp children are always moving rocks along the river and building dams. So how is detecting a shoreline any different?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Funny thing is this rule is at just about every county park along the river, where gasp children are always moving rocks along the river and building dams. So how is detecting a shoreline any different?

Here is how it is "different" : Those children who "deface" and "dig" and "roll stones" etc... did not approach those town and ask : "Hi, can I please deface, dig, roll stones, etc...? " If-they-had-done so, then THEY TOO could have gotten a "no". Then THEY TOO could start forums lamenting their lack of freedoms.


Durned those children for not asking permission. Eh ?

 

[Nerdling]

Here is how it is "different" : Those children who "deface" and "dig" and "roll stones" etc... did not approach those town and ask : "Hi, can I please deface, dig, roll stones, etc...? " If-they-had-done so, then THEY TOO could have gotten a "no". Then THEY TOO could start forums lamenting their lack of freedoms.


Durned those children for not asking permission. Eh ?

Which is why I tend to be forgetful and neglect to ask for permission and go ahead and do it anyways.