Martin_V3i
Elite Member
Did you ever have to "take the ride" and then beat the rap?
Police called on me for curb strip hunting
- Thread starter pplinker
- Start date
Did you ever have to "take the ride" and then beat the rap?
Absolutely not. I was never cuffed and stuffed! (Handcuffed and stuffed in the back of a police cruiser for those not knowing)
Its actually stated.."You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride.." It is very true..or Felony Stupid...
Being found "Not Guilty" does not make you right, just "Not Guilty"..All police need to show is Probable Cause, not a very high hurdle..Court has to prove Beyond a Reasonable Doubt..A very very high Hurdle...Nor can police be sued under the rules of sovereign immunity. (Official Duties, blah,blah). So in essence, you can be the rap, but you cant beat the ride..
Being found "Not Guilty" does not make you right, just "Not Guilty"..All police need to show is Probable Cause, not a very high hurdle..Court has to prove Beyond a Reasonable Doubt..A very very high Hurdle...Nor can police be sued under the rules of sovereign immunity. (Official Duties, blah,blah). So in essence, you can be the rap, but you cant beat the ride..
Martin_V3i
Elite Member
A friend, a former LEO in detecting once said to me during a talk about this situation, "You might beat the ticket, but you won't beat the ride." That alone sobers me up on pushing things when confronted.
You done good! I enjoy your posts.
Here is the thing. The law in MOST states has trespassing as a very low end crime. In Utah it was a class 3 misdemeanor when I was a cop. That is the absolute lowest crime you can commit. No cop wants to be hassled by taking you to jail over something so absolutely minor.
Here in Michigan, if you are trespassing, the owner has to tell you that you are and then you have to refuse to leave BEFORE an officer can get involved.
While diving it is even WORSE than that. You can dive in any lake anywhere as long as you have access to the lake. Just like you can boat on the top of it or swim anywhere. If you are on a completely private lake with absolutely no public access anywhere and one land owner lets you on the lake, you can dive in it ANYWHERE you want.
Now the tricky part. Each landowner on a private lake owns a piece of the lake all the way to the middle. A pie shaped piece. You can boat, fish or swim anywhere on the lake and drop anchor anywhere. BUT you CANNOT touch bottom on someone else's property.
BUT, they have to see you touch bottom. Tell you you are trespassing and then SEE YOU touch bottom on their piece of pie again.
I don't write the laws, I just follow them. Waving your hand above the bottom to see a gold ring and picking it up is not breaking the law!
ohiochris
Elite Member
Check your citys parcel maps.....bet you they show your property extending to the sidewalk and no further 
..............now you may have to mow the grass there , because lets face it , it would be stupid if you mowed everything else except for that narrow strip now wouldnt it ? So thats common sense , but dont think that entitles you to ownership privileges. Check the map , you may be surprised that what you thought all these years is not actually true. But I still usually ask for permission on the curb strips when possible.....sometimes I dont
..............now you may have to mow the grass there , because lets face it , it would be stupid if you mowed everything else except for that narrow strip now wouldnt it ? So thats common sense , but dont think that entitles you to ownership privileges. Check the map , you may be surprised that what you thought all these years is not actually true. But I still usually ask for permission on the curb strips when possible.....sometimes I dont 
Oldsjunkie
Forum Supporter
Exactly. I've done some obnoxiously stupid and illegal things (in my younger years) and have only been arrested under the most "serious" conditions. Why would an officer want to mess with a person and their equipment and do all the paperwork for a (possible) minor trespasser, taking pennies out of the ground by the road? Don't make a jackass of yourself and you're not getting "cuffed and stuffed".
BRJ123
Elite Member
"in another hypothetical If you're cool with people doing innocuous things on your property would you be cool with someone coming in your house and checking things out, watching the TV you have on maybe eating their takeout on your counter (they wiped up afterward so its innocuous). Hitting up the toilet (but flushing and washing their hands so its innocuous)...you'd never even know they were there right? so it must be fine."
BRJ-123: The problem with this question, is it equates coming inside your house, and watching TV, as being equal to and analogous to someone walking on , or md'ing on the curb strip. But the difference is: the curb strip DOES have public access right-of-way. Whereas your living room where your TV is, and using your bathroom, etc... DOES NOT have that same public access right-of-way.
Hence how can you make such a non-parallel question ?
If it's true that the parking strips are every bit of private as your living room , then your question makes sense. Which would mean that all passengers who step foot out their car door onto your curb strip, are every bit as rude and obnoxious and someone barging into your living room and watching your TV. The 2 are not comparable.
Sorry bro, I lost ya here. But I'm going to assume that the analogy you are trying to draw from this is : The md'r is analogous to the person who just destroyed the $100 bill-bearing plant. Right ? And the analogy you'll draw is that the md'r is .... likewise .... doing damage that costs the homeowner $$. Right ?
So to make this example/analogy work, we're back to square one in assuming that : "MD'ing = mayhem, damage, and destruction". If this premise is true, then yes, your $100 plant analogy is true. And then by all means, don't detect. In fact, Don't detect even in parks, schools, and beaches. Because the same horrid-ness exists there too (and laws to forbid destruction and damage)
But why this starting premiseIf you do that type damage when you detect, I kindly suggest you repeat the "target recovery 101 class".
I guess what you refuse to get through your head here is that there is no "public right of way" on many people's property, which is why this topic is so contentious and why the police officer in the original posting had "the writing" to prove to the md'r. (I understand you won't read or understand this paragraph)
So I guess if you refuse to apply simple facts, not just the ones you choose to believe, it will be much more difficult to have a discussion or debate with you. The inside of your house is very parallel if both the curb strip and the inside of your house are protectable private property which in many people's case it is. I realize this does not make any sense to you because you feel it's ok to metal detect wherever you want without permission.
as to the $100 plant you're 100% missing the point as you seem to be unable to apply facts outside of the world you choose to live in. The damage is not the point (I realize you won't read or understand this) it is the fact that they unwittingly committed the damage by accident simply by stepping on someone else's private property because they deemed it was ok without knowing the actual law. I realize this probably sounds and looks like greek to you so I apologize.
So anyways in short , reading comprehension...think outside the box. Learn a thing or two outside your own world.... Your points make sense, they really do. but THEY DO NOT when they apply to other people's situations.
The LAW in PA just might be that you own the land. That DOESN'T mean it is the same in every state and every jurisdiction. In Utah, the homeowner does NOT own the land. However it is his responsibility to keep it mowed.
Laws vary from state to state, jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
MAJOR EXAMPLE
In Utah if you evicted someone. A sheriff or constable had to inventory everything in the home and put it in storage for 30 days so the renter could claim it. You HAD to account for everything and had to have documentation.
In Michigan, as soon as the judge signs the eviction order, the landlord could go in the home and put everything there on the curb or take it. HIS CHOICE. Everything is up for grabs by anybody.
Nobody knows the laws in every state or jurisdiction. KNOW YOUR RIGHTS and YOUR LAWS. Arguing points from California to Pennsylvania is absolutely worthless.
I found access to a lake by calling a realtor who had an empty lot for sale. He took all my information and said go ahead, if the owner had a problem he would call me. So I get into this lake one evening. On my way out a person was shining a flashlight on me. It was a St. Clair County Sheriff. He told me the land owner called and I was trespassing. I told him the land owner didn't call as he lives in Florida. He asked me who gave me permission. I told him. He said that wasn't good enough. I told him it was. I said the realtor was the owners agent and could let anyone on the property. I also told him my background. He got really rude. He said so you know the laws in every state? I said no but I know the laws here. He got so belligerent he told me he was going to tow my truck. I said go ahead, I will sit here till its gone. he got in his car and slammed the door. I took off my gear and sat on a log. About 5 minutes later or so he rolled down his window and called me over. He APOLOGIZED to me and told me I did more than most people. We had a good talk and he left.
BRJ123
Elite Member
This is exactly what I am saying though? maybe i just wasn't explaining well...
I feel like Tom is telling everyone on the forums it is ok to metal detect any curb strip you want anywhere in the USA you want. I think that is poor advice. Advice that as you can see in the OP can indeed rightfully get you in trouble with law enforcement.
Tom and I have our disagreements but we respect each others views. I don't think he believes he knows the laws in every jurisdiction. He does enjoy a good debate though!
BRJ123
Elite Member
Me too, i just find it difficult to have a real debate if people decide to just believe whatever they want regardless of the facts.
Take your lake example above. How do you believe things would have worked out if you didn't call the homeowners realtor/agent before getting in the lake(private curb strip)?.
If I would have been stupid enough to trespass on private property without permission. I would have told the officer I was sorry and left instead of arguing my point.
I WANT TO POINT OUT ONE IMPORTANT ASPECT THOUGH.
I WAS a cop. I was trained. I know what officers can do and what they try to get you to believe they can do. I will push them because of this. I DO NOT expect anyone to follow my example. NO disgrace to leave and come back a different time if you are right and know it. I am just too stubborn and I don't get pushed around by them.
In Michigan, you have to be told you are trespassing by the homeowner and REFUSE to leave before an officer can give you a citation. So if an officer would come and tell me to leave and I didn't have the right to be there, I would get out of there as fast as possible.
However that is never the case with me and most on here know it. I have upset a few officers enough to warrant receiving 6 citations while detecting. ALL have been dismissed because I was right though. I don't go around breaking laws and then giving officers lip service.
However, if I am within the law, I won't back down at all. I got railroaded out of being a state cop and I still have issues with how I was treated.
If an officer ever takes me to jail, they will really have a tiger by the tail and will loose. However, I have yet to see an officer want to push it that far. It came close the year before last though. I really ticked off a couple of Wayne County Sheriff officers. I got three citations for that. All dismissed and now they know I was totally within my rights.
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BRJ123
Elite Member
I love it Scuba...sometimes you do have to stand up when the facts are in your favor and you still find yourself being pushed around. I applaud you for that and I think others should learn from it.
However in the case earlier in this thread if one were to be in the wrong by trespassing, knowingly or unknowingly, on private property (curbstrips or otherwise) I think they should be fully ok with taking the ride downtown and not give an officer a hassle with pretend facts no matter what advice is given here on this forum.
Tom_in_CA
Elite Member
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- Dec 23, 2013
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BRJ-123, I thought you were saying that this is a no-no (and equal to barging into someone's house to watch their TV) across the entire USA. If you meant: "Only those locales where it is truly indeed private property", then ok then.
I think the air is now cleared that what I am saying is only true when there is public access/right of way . Like for utilities, & for stepping out of one's car passenger seat, etc....
But what you are saying would be true for places where the owner owns all the way past the sidewalk and to the street. That's not true for all of where I'm at . And seemingly for the majority of the USA, so that water-lines and utilities can go in. But if it's true for some isolated locales, fine then, don't md in those select zones. And sure, knock yourself out studying assessor maps so that you don't set foot where not allowed.
In the case of the type muni codes you had in mind: I highly doubt that pedestrians, when walking down the street, will have to walk on the asphalt. Or that if a car pulls over to park parallel, that the passenger can not exit out his door "lest he be trespassing". But I'll consent that there might be parts of the USA where the homeowner can "shoo away" anyone who dares set foot there, or dares md there. I was not referring to such isolated muni code locales.
Now I'll bet you that if Scuba was to exit a passenger car door and step on someone's grass in your city, that this would be the first time he'd be cuffed, stuffed, and his car and detector confiscated. Not even scuba could beat that rap ! After all: md'ing is like clubbing baby seals, bank-robbery, etc... Only worse !
Buellride
Forum Supporter
I have to jump into this dialogue and I agree with everyone's viewpoint. Know your laws and covenants....
I respect police officers, I treat them with respect, and they do in kind to me. I have had at least 10-15 visits by officers while MD'ing and each time it was an educational and enjoyable event for everyone involved. I rarely hunt curb strips (but thinking of it tomorrow
), but when I do I try to be as respectful as possible when doing it. I don't leave holes, soil, stomp the grass, I don't trample those $100 leaved plants, and if it is a nicely landscaped strip I don't detect it.But the cops do come and will ask questions...your body language, vocal tone, even how you carry your detector and shovel all are being read as they approach you....don't give them a reason to suspect anything is amiss before you even have an opportunity to talk.
Heck one time I even allowed the officer to try out my machine, then he preceded to ask about what kind of guns I own (long story).
Another time someone reported someone with an assault rifle in the field (me), though the detector was wildly mis-identified as an assault weapon....
I was even "engaged" with a police officer in Dubai
....yes Dubai, and while he was inflammatory and agitated, I was respectful and the ending was positive.I am ex-military (27 years), I feel the same way about military as Scuba feels about police. I love to mess with them when they exceed their authority...mainly because I know all of their processes and chain of command. But I do it respectfully and only pull that kind of "mess" if they try to mess with me. By the by Air Force SPs have much more "itchy" trigger fingers than most public police...
In end, be informed, be respectful, know when you can push the boundaries, and when it may not be worth a "scene". Finally, be good stewards of our hobby "profession". Grin:
Buellride, I had to laugh at your response. Only because I was a USAF SP before I became a state cop. I totally agree with what you say. In EVERY instance I have talked to the police while diving I have had two double edge dive knifes on me in sheaths in plain view. Not ONCE did they ever feel they had to take them from me. The way you handle yourself is VERY important. Even though I argued with them, I NEVER threatened or caused them fear. In some instances in Utah, I was packing a concealed gun. I only pointed it out once when the home owner went to jail for impersonating a police officer when I was on a parking strip. The rest of the times I talked to them I never told a city cop I was a state cop.
RESPECT goes both ways. However, don't threaten me when you are not within the law!
I am a good steward to the hobby I feel. I return any valuable I can, I am polite to everyone I talk to and I don't break laws to make finds. Some on here feel different about me. That is your right. No municipality will change the law because I stick up for my rights.
RESPECT goes both ways. However, don't threaten me when you are not within the law!
I am a good steward to the hobby I feel. I return any valuable I can, I am polite to everyone I talk to and I don't break laws to make finds. Some on here feel different about me. That is your right. No municipality will change the law because I stick up for my rights.
Ive been detecting strips off and on for 20 years and have never had a problem. I have asked a few times and cannot remember being told no.
I usualy hunt very early in the morning and I target strips in front of old homes, apartments or lots. I never hunt strips that have nice grass or look kept up or are in good neighborhoods. Last weekend I hunted several and they were all dirt and patchy dried out grass.
If anyone were ever to ask me to leave I would say, just trying out my new machine and I would try to strike up a conversation or say something to change the subject and then leave without incident.
One thing that will probably never happen to me is have the cops called on me, Because the areas I hunt are mostly in bad neighborhoods, bad guys usually dont call the cops.
I usualy hunt very early in the morning and I target strips in front of old homes, apartments or lots. I never hunt strips that have nice grass or look kept up or are in good neighborhoods. Last weekend I hunted several and they were all dirt and patchy dried out grass.
If anyone were ever to ask me to leave I would say, just trying out my new machine and I would try to strike up a conversation or say something to change the subject and then leave without incident.
One thing that will probably never happen to me is have the cops called on me, Because the areas I hunt are mostly in bad neighborhoods, bad guys usually dont call the cops.
OK, as a test to determine who owns the strip - try not mowing it for two or three months . . . will the city come mow 'its' strip, or cite you for not doing so? If I have to maintain it, it belongs to me (full disclosure - yes, I am a lawyer and yes, I do know a LOT about real estate law. In fact, I teach a course in it at a local college every year). As I said, it depends on the property description. If it says your lot stops at the sidewalk, then that's the way it is. In almost all cities, however, the lot extends past the sidewalk, at least to the street, and sometimes to the middle of the street.
That is NOT a way to determine who owns something. The law in Utah is that it is a PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY. However the homeowner is required to maintain it. As stated EACH STATE IS DIFFERENT. Some states you own the mineral rights to anything on your property. Others you own nothing and if they find oil or natural gas under your property they can take it and you have no rights.
In Michigan the law is from the middle of the street to 18' out is public. Even if a home has no sidewalk, if you measure 18' from the center of the street to the turf that is public.
Maybe you are a lawyer and maybe that is the law in Texas. I don't know or care. I do know why they bury lawyers 12' deep instead of the customary 6 when they die though.
Cause deep down they are really good people.
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