Minelab Manticore Aluminum Bottle Screw Cap Rejection

[tnsharpshooter]

The ID range on Deus 2 is rather compressed. Notice difference between a Nickel and zincoln ID wise even though Deus 2 has a rather large ID span. 64 approx nickel and 85 for zinc on approx.
Manticore different. Much larger difference span wise between the 2 objects.
Manticore behavior ID wise comparing zincoln and aluminum twist cap. No real help to users. Even looking a surf and seawater mode.

Can a Deus 2 user places odds on lead vs gold ring comparing 40 kHz max freq and14 kHz max freq sweeping? I think so.

I looked at Deus 2 in the wild looking at tendencies of aluminum drink bottle twist caps. Yeah, I saw this in controlled tests too, why I looked at in the wild. Those foam tests can help folks. Hmm.

Yeah seems no one else besides me brought his up as far as Deus 2. Hmm

 

[Diga]

AC,

In addition and also in relation to sample size, is a coin lying flat, at a particular depth, isn't going to prove much of anything. What about all the coins that are edged, or completely on edge? What about the various depths?, etc.

Then of course, regardless of methodology, is confirmation bias. I WANT to believe!!! lol

 

[AccurateCalls]

AC,

In addition and also in relation to sample size, is a coin lying flat, at a particular depth, isn't going to prove much of anything. What about all the coins that are edged, or completely on edge? What about the various depths?, etc.

Then of course, regardless of methodology, is confirmation bias. I WANT to belive!!! lol

Yeah, I am all for people proposing ideas and techniques and things to try, but whenever I hear "I also verified several located in the wild caps too.", then you can be certain we are dealing with confirmation bias and statistical variance.

Unless by "several" they mean several hundreds, then they are just the person who flipped the coin 20 times, and got 70% right by pure chance and now think they have a method to predict the outcome of coin flips.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Deus 2 users don’t have to take my word for it. Instead they can compare and dig (the signals reading 82-88 using 40 kHz max freq whereas use of 14 kHz max freq using FMF read lower. And see if they indeed see a pattern.
I just share info. What I have witnessed using the detector.
Thought that what forums were for. Guess not.
Seems folks are quick to shoot the messenger trying to disprove what one has said, their methods, etc,
Ashame really.

I have shared some good data when it comes to some detector models.
And some folks have even admitted. Hmmm

 

[Diga]

Deus 2 users don’t have to take my word for it. Instead they can compare and dig (the signals reading 82-88 using 40 kHz max freq whereas use of 14 kHz max freq using FMF read lower. And see if they indeed see a pattern.
I just share info. What I have witnessed using the detector.
Thought that what forums were for. Guess not.
Seems folks are quick to shoot the messenger trying to disprove what one has said, their methods, etc,
Ashame really.

It's great that you experiment TNS, and I've thanked you more than once in the past for trying out all sorts of things.

In regards to your first sentence in your quote:

No one is denying that a change in the frequency weight, can, and often does, slightly change the ID. Please understand that the ID change is not in dispute. What is in dispute, is whether or not your method would be advantageous or detrimental, due to all the variables involved.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Well. It works for me. Why I shared. Who wants to dig aluminum twist caps in a park. Hmmm
Now smashed ones you’ll still dig. No ID difference most of the time.
Now there are some bigger aluminum screw caps. Seem to be higher quality than drink bottle aluminum twist caps. You’ll dig those too perhaps.

 

[jmaclen]

AC,

In addition and also in relation to sample size, is a coin lying flat, at a particular depth, isn't going to prove much of anything. What about all the coins that are edged, or completely on edge? What about the various depths?, etc.

Then of course, regardless of methodology, is confirmation bias. I WANT to believe!!! lol

There is also denial bias.

"So, for you hunters who claim you can accomplish such a thing with tones, ID, or the Deus II X/Y screen, or the Manti's Target Trace, I'm calling BS"

"Well, to be blunt, I claim those hunters are delusional, and also maintain a good dose of confirmation bias."

I am the kind of person that tries to keep an open mind and a neutral stance.

However, I will research and use any possible advantage that might help me to differentiate between targets that have a regular shape, meaning they are in the same shape as when they were produced, they have different compositions but they have similar target IDs and audio pitches depending on the tone setting being used.

Learning those target's inherent characteristic responses when they are on the surface to medium depth for me anyway, may help to lessen the "randomness" of my ability to distinguish them.

Since I live in a very large US city, I simply can't dig it all for every reason that you can think of in a public park. I don't consider myself to be delusional or full of BS when I search for any discernible characteristic that might help.

In the case of the Manticore using All Terrain General, the question about undamaged aluminum screw caps and as stated by the OP, US copper pennies, I use the 5 tone setting and move the 4th to 5th tone break high enough (76 works for me most of the time) so that most of the medium sized screw caps stay in the 4th tone bin. Even most of the flattened ones do too. Since I am going to cherry pick/dig any target that appears to be coin/jewerly sized that has a tone above that tone break at 76 anyway, I'm fine with digging any larger or messed up aluminum screw cap that high tones. At least for me there aren't that many to deal with compared to the ones that land below 76.

Other search modes and settings adjustments may produce something different on the Manticore.......I just haven't explored this yet.

As far as the smaller shot bottle aluminum screw caps and US zinc pennies or big gold rings......good luck. I dig these a lot. I can't even classify a US zinc penny as a repeatable shaped target anymore. When they are heavily destroyed like the one in the photo, the target IDs are way off. They are already pretty variable even on zinc pennies in good shape on SMF VLFs with wider target ID ranges.

I consider myself to be a beginner on the Manticore like most of us should. It is a very different detector from the Equinox and from the earlier Minelab SMFs.

I have found that lowering the sensitivity to between 16 and 20 gives the Manticore a better chance of having stable target IDs on these targets if they are shallow to medium depth from surface 4 to 6" deep. However, where I most often detect, target IDs are very relative much deeper than 6" deep due to mineralization and soil moisture. So a deeper screw cap can have a much higher target ID on the Manticore and on other SMF VLFs.

 

[jmaclen]

Loren/Accurate Calls said:

"Uncrushed aluminum screw caps tend to produce wider / more oblong renderings on the 2D screen typically without any verticality......"

I actually do sometimes see some slight verticality towards the upper ferrous limit especially on deeper ones.

Some crushed ones also produce wider/more oblong renderings from my experience using the Manticore, but I don't want to get labeled for saying that. It's just a fact so far from my experience. Am I going to use that possibility in real life hunting.......maybe.

Loren, I thoroughly enjoyed your post on Paramagnetism.

Here is a short 3 minute video showing paramagnetism is some non ferrous and mixed alloy targets encountered while metal detecting.

How this all may have some relevance to this subject if one chooses to be open minded is up to you. I don't deal in absolutes and any claims I make just apply to me. If you choose to be in denial, I'm good with that too as long as you don't sling bottle caps and dirt at me.

 

[AccurateCalls]

I actually do sometimes see some slight verticality towards the upper ferrous limit especially on deeper ones.

I would wager that is because you have more mineralization than I do. The vertically aligned ones tend to be objects competing with a ground signal. But just goes to show how a difference in hunting conditions can change things.

Some crushed ones also produce wider/more oblong renderings from my experience using the Manticore, but I don't want to get labeled for saying that. It's just a fact so far from my experience. Am I going to use that possibility in real life hunting.......maybe.

I have about ~100 aluminum screw caps in my possession that I test on. So here in Finland, all alcohol was produced by a government monopoly for many years, and they were all packaged in bottles with aluminum screw caps en mass, also combined with the fact it is socially acceptable to drink in public, they are rather abundant here and are essentially my enemy number one. They can range anywhere from a mid to a high conductor, and come in a variety of shapes, sizes, coatings painted with various conductive minerals, etc.

I too find that even flattened ones can produce oblong renderings on the 2D screen. Honestly they can be crushed into a variety of shapes that make them produce such a wide variety of tone profiles such that trying to eliminate them very problematic. Even horribly mangled ones can sometimes produce perfectly coin-like tones, while some seemingly perfect and undamaged ones produces crazy unstable tones.

There are times and places where there are so many screw caps, that I will broadly reject digging these targets, but knowing that I will certainly be missing good stuff. The fact these screw caps produce such a wide variety of tones and TIDs is what makes them impossible to reject without losing good targets too. There is no rejecting of targets in any capacity that doesn't result in losing good ones too, it's up to the detectorist to make a judgement call of when it is justified based on how they want to spend their time.

Loren, I thoroughly enjoyed your post on Paramagnetism.

Thanks! I have been trying to answer a bunch of my own questions by going back and relearning all the relevant physics. E.g. why can't a detector distinguish the paramagnetic properties of aluminum?

I have a bunch more that I think people will find interesting, I was sort of intending to make them into youtube videos at some point. Others are "Why is gold hard to detect compared to other metals? Why is gold a low conductor? Why is it said that iron produces both a ferrous and non-ferrous component? etc". I have finally arrived at solid explanations as to the physics behind those questions when I don't think they have been adequately answered by anyone anywhere that I am aware of.

 

[UT_Dave]

With the Manticore, if I'm digging clad dime/copper Memorial signals that day, and a piece of aluminum, screw cap or otherwise, does a good job of imitating a clad dime/copper Memorial signal, I end up digging it.

If a piece of aluminum, screw cap or otherwise, does a good job of imitating a clad quarter signal, I end up digging it.

But I don't dig that many screw caps with the Manticore. Even in parks with a lot of them. Because most aluminum screw caps don't give that good of an imitation. Some might give the same TID as a dime or penny, or quarter, but the signals usually don't sound quite the same or look quite the same on the TT screen. I always run 1 region all tones myself, and don't notch anything.

Do I miss coins and other good targets that I mistake for aluminum? Of course. But as with Jeff, I'm rarely in a dig all situation when coin and jewelry hunting in a park. Not even in a dig half situation. And I can usually keep myself busy digging all the targets I feel like digging at the time, and often more, while still being very selective. Avoiding zincs, always, myself. It's not hard to keep myself busy digging 20 targets an hour with a very low trash ratio.

As an aside, I can't reliably call copper pennies from clad dimes with my Manticore, at least the way I run it. With over 2,200 clad dimes and just over 1,000 copper pennies dug so far using the Manticore, I could just call them all dimes and be right 2/3 of the time. But you know, I still try and guess every one, and my call rate is actually slightly worse than if I just called them all dimes. I'm trying to confirmation bias that the other way but haven't succeeded yet .

- DAA

 

[Diga]

I had some time to do some quick air testing with my Legend. For the experiment, I used a large uncrushed aluminum cap, and a copper penny.

On the copper penny, all 3 SMF modes, and all 5 SF modes gave a TID of 46.

On the cap, all 3 SMF modes gave a TID of 46, but the SF of 4 khz gave a 44, and 40 khz gave a 48.

I'm still trying to process those results, but it looks like TNS might be on to something. I don't want to draw any definite conclusions, but it seems the uncrushed caps can be identified on the Legend, by a quick switch from any SMF mode, to either the SF of 4khz or 40khz.

My next test will be with a flattened cap, and a copper penny on edge.

 

[Diga]

I just performed the experiment again with a flattened cap, and a copper penny on edge.

The flattened cap produced a consistent 46, regardless of what SMF or SF mode was used.

The coin on edge is where everything fell apart. Since the coin on edge produced very few eddy currents compared to a coin lying flat, the TID on the edged coin wasn't nearly as consistent as the coin lying flat.

Given the edged coin test, I'm now thinking that TNS's method would work if the coin was lying flat, but I doubt most coins in the ground are lying flat. If most coins aren't lying flat, then I would have to conclude that using TNS's method is too "iffy" and uncertain to have any notable benefit. It goes back to the "too many variables" dilemma.

 

[jmaclen]

Thank you for posting your testing.

I know this may not help the OP but I promise to do something similar with the Manticore soon.

I did a similar test with two different Legends.

I have several undamaged medium sized aluminum screw caps like the Budweiser cap used in the the photo I posted, so your test cap and mine may be different sizes.

I setup my test area with two small 2X4 wood blocks laying flat on either side of the target so my LG24 coil height would stay the same at around 2". The target IDs are less consistent with these DD coils any closer from my experience.

I was using the Legend, LG24 coil, sensitivity 20, recovery speed 5, iron filter 1, discrimination pattern A.

All the medium sized undamaged aluminum screw caps that I tested had the same result:
Park M1 41 to 43, Park M2 43 to 45, Park M3 43 to 45, 4k 41, 10k 42/43, 15k 43/44, 20k 44/45, 40k 46/47

I tested three flattened medium sized aluminum screw caps like the Budweiser in the photo with same results:
Park M1 42/43, Park M2 43, Park M3 43, 4k 42/43, 10k 43, 15k 43, 20k 43/44, 40k 43/44

I tested a US copper Memorial penny:
Park M1 46, Park M2 46, Park M3 46, 4k 46, 10k 46, 15k 46, 20k 46/47, 40k 47/48

Back about two years ago I setup my 6 tone US coin program with the last tone break at 43 so that these medium sized aluminum screw caps would mostly have audio tones inside the 5th tone bin and if they sometimes crossed over that last tone break and dropped back into the 5th tone bin during swings that would help me identify them. This only works on surface to about 6" deep here. Any deeper and the target IDs for these aluminum screw caps and for copper pennies and clad dimes start to creep upward which makes them have a multiple number of target IDs.

 

[Diga]

Thanks for that Jeff.

I did make a point of keeping the coil height consistent, but as you noted, and I experienced as well, the ID is too inconsistent up to about 2" away from the coil. Ditto for when the cap is deep.

I'm still thinking that the method might have some merit though. For example, for the uncrushed caps that aren't too shallow, nor too deep.

 

[Diga]

Also Jeff...

I was using a large screw on cap from a wine bottle. That's why I was getting the higher ID than you got.

I'm glad we both found that the TID in all SMF modes was very similar. I was most surprised by 40khz raising the ID from 46 to 48 (sometimes hitting 49, and I think I might have saw a 50 lol)

 

[jmaclen]

Loren/Accurate Calls said:

"Uncrushed aluminum screw caps tend to produce wider / more oblong renderings on the 2D screen typically without any verticality......"

I actually do sometimes see some slight verticality towards the upper ferrous limit especially on deeper ones.

Some crushed ones also produce wider/more oblong renderings from my experience using the Manticore, but I don't want to get labeled for saying that. It's just a fact so far from my experience. Am I going to use that possibility in real life hunting.......maybe.

Loren, I thoroughly enjoyed your post on Paramagnetism.

Here is a short 3 minute video showing paramagnetism is some non ferrous and mixed alloy targets encountered while metal detecting.

How this all may have some relevance to this subject if one chooses to be open minded is up to you. I don't deal in absolutes and any claims I make just apply to me. If you choose to be in denial, I'm good with that too as long as you don't sling bottle caps and dirt at me.

A few details about that video

The 1853 US $1 gold coin is 90% gold, 10% copper and the 14k gold ring is 54% gold. That is not enough gold content to make their diamagnetic properties slow down their fall rate on the magnet slide. Gold that is 95% or more in purity will slow down quite a bit near the bottom of the slide.

Nickel is considered paramagnetic since it has 2 unpaired electrons. When there is mostly nickel in an object that is exposed to a magnetic field the two unpaired electrons will align with the magnetic field and that nickel object can mimic ferromagnetic properties. US nickels have only 25% nickel and 75% copper so nowhere near enough nickel to slow their fall rate on a magnet slide.

Pull tabs and screw caps made in the USA are basically pure aluminum. Aluminum is also paramagnetic and it has one unpaired electron in its 3rd (I think) ring. That unpaired electron will react to a magnetic field created by a Magnet Slide by aligning with the magnetic field and it becomes attracted to the magnets while inside the field which really slows down its fall rate.

 

[Diga]

Once the winter ends, I'll definitely try out the method in the wild when I'm cherry picking high conductors.

It means I'll have to make a switch from my SMF mode to either 4 khz or 40 khz, for every signal, and that will be annoying. BUT, if the method proves to be working, that frequency switch will be much less annoying (and much easier) than digging up those caps!

 

[jmaclen]

Once the winter ends, I'll definitely try out the method in the wild when I'm cherry picking high conductors.

It means I'll have to make a switch from my SMF mode to either 4 khz or 40 khz, for every signal, and that will be annoying. BUT, if the method proves to be working, that frequency switch will be much less annoying (and much easier) than digging up those caps!

Thankfully with the Legend, it is a few simple presses of the same button to shift from a multi to single frequency mode.

It was that easy on the Equinox models too.

It is not easy to do that on the Manticore even using soft key shortcuts. Tons of button presses if you don't use the soft key and the actual soft key is on the side of the detector instead of being one of the front buttons and that soft key button is super hard to press/engage.......

With Deus 2, it is really easy to setup two or more adjacent programs for this kind of testing and target interrogation and scrolling back and forth between them is also easy.

 

[AccurateCalls]

It is not easy to do that on the Manticore even using soft key shortcuts. Tons of button presses if you don't use the soft key and the actual soft key is on the side of the detector instead of being one of the front buttons and that soft key button is super hard to press/engage.......

Jeff, you are mistaken about the Manticore soft key buttons.

It actually has 2 assignable soft-keys on the front (and a 3rd one on the side). You can assign those soft-keys directly to frequency and very easily and rapidly change from SMF to any SF in less than a second.

In terms of actual time measured, the Manticore can switch frequencies a bit faster than the Deus 2, and the initial set up to configure the soft keys takes less time than creating an identical duplicate program but in SF on the Deus 2.

I honestly believe the soft keys make the Manticore the most readily configurable A/B testing detector there is. It may be my favorite thing about the detector. The Deus 2 paradigm of having to setup multiple adjacent programs is significantly more time consuming than globally assignable soft keys.

Nice video btw.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

The Deus 2 is the most readily configurable. Why?
Deus 2 offers auto noise cancel.
DEUS 2 offers more single (frequency) ops.
Manticore disc - you are stuck. Per program.
Deus 2 once you get it setup using remote you are done. And program can be altered if needed on the fly and saved.
So many back to back programs with names can be had for user. With different whatever.
It just takes user familiarity to learn how to do.
WS6 master. Doesn’t allow back to back multiple program setup. Just one for each factory slot behind the factory slot.

Soft keys and things added with update on Manticore definitely helped it.

Notice one can choose custom ferrous limits. Once you set up you can apply any and all to each program.
Disc - should be allowed to do this too. Maybe update will make this possible.

Btw.
I talked about this and called them hot keys dankowski forum years ago. That manufacturers should offer them. For quick changes.
Seems Minelab saw my discussion.

Also, I pressed hard to get manufacturers to allow quick external speaker turn off and on. So folks could do videos easier. After they locate a target using headphones only. Manticore offers this. I suggested to Xp to get DEUS 2 to do. It don’t offer hot key yet to do,
Think the Legend allows too.

Yeah I suggested some good stuff. Some of it has been employed. Which is good.