Higher cost VS lower cost detectors

[Diga]

I’ve posted videos and / or talked about how the newer low cost detectors are matching the performance of very high cost detectors. Examples of such for SF detectors, are the X-Terra Pro and the Simplex line. Examples of such for SMF are the Score / Legend, and to some degree, the Vanquish line. I say “some degree” to the Vanquish line, because the Score models are overall, much better detectors than the Vanquish line, but at similar costs.

The two most common expensive detectors are the Manticore and Deus II. Are these detectors worth the premium price compared to the much lower cost SMF detectors? Well…

The Manti touts 50% more power to the coil, compared to the Nox line. Thing is, 50% more power only equates to a measly 7% more depth, and that 7% is only under perfect conditions. The Manti also has the 2D screen, but it’s nothing more than a simple ID plotter. Problem is, an ID plotter actually gives less information on nonferrous targets than regular TID does. The 2D screen does have the ability to show ferrous content independently of the tone and ID, and that definitely helps in identifying iron falsing. However, that feature is also available on much lower cost SMF detectors.

In regards to the D2:

The main “advantages” of the D2 are often touted as the wireless coil and its light weight. There’s no arguing against its light weight, but I wouldn’t want to deal with its flaky and fragile wired system when I water hunt. I’d rather have a wired coil for ease of use / reliability, and have one less thing to charge. Plus, it’s not as if a coil cable adds any relevant extra weight.

My point to all of this, is that it seems when all else is equal, performance between the high cost detectors, and some of the much lower cost detectors, is basically the same. Nokta proved this be true, and completely changed the market. Minelab is realizing the same thing by introducing the X-Terra Pro and the Voyager. Although the Voyager is rather pathetic, and I’m surprised Minelab put their name on it. Especially considering that for not much more money, one can purchase much better detectors like the X-Terra Pro or a Simplex Lite.

So, comments? Agree, disagree?

 

[The Lama]

I pretty much agree i think some people get really into the gadgetry off new stuff but i think in most conditions it doesn't actually help find more stuff for instance i mainly hunt the ocean with an Apex with the big coil ,when hunting with my friends with cttx's ,noxes or legends they never have hit a good target that i couldn't clearly hear with the 429$ Apex

 

[Diga]

Ah darn, I forgot about the Apex. Thanks for the reminder

 

[hoser]

You summed it up well D. I think it boils down to doing some research and cross comparing of the machines you are interested in and at that point make the decision to buy or not to buy. I think you said that when the smoke clears, they all are just about the same minus a few small things to consider. My days of getting the bigger, badder, better are now behind me. For me, if they were still in business I would probably buy a Tesoro unit. No frills, light weight, a real deep seeker, and are time proven detectors. Now that is IMHO.

 

[Rattlehead]

I’d say aside from the light weight, one of the Deus II’s biggest strengths is its descriptive audio and the endless audio options it offers. That’s what I like most about it compared to the other detectors I’ve used. I can’t compare it to the Legend, Xterra or other lower cost units you mentioned as I haven’t used them. I did own a Simplex for a while and it seemed like a lot of bang for the buck, but just wasn’t a good fit for me.

 

[Diga]

RattleHead,

I'm not overly familiar with the D2's audio options, but I doubt most potential buyers are giving those audio options much thought when taking a new detector into consideration. At most, I would think they would be satisfied with the basic "number of tones" feature, and perhaps an option to choose between pitch tones, and whatever the other type of tone is called lol.

Personally, I don't even bother with any of it. I mean, with the Legend, I can use pitch tones or the bell? tones, full tones, change pitch, frequency, etc, but I only use 1 tone. I set my detector up to only beep on targets that I told it to, so when it does that, I dig. There's no need for me, nor want, to hear an orchestra

 

[Rattlehead]

By descriptive audio, I’m referring to how nuanced it is, especially when using pitch or full tones. It’s more nuanced than other detectors I’ve used. I’m not a beep n dig detectorist. Too much trash in the ground for these old bones to dig everything that beeps. So, a descriptive audio is a very important feature to me. The ability to switch from square audio to PWM is another nice feature. I like being able to fine tune the audio to my preference. Options are good. I’m not arguing your point, just pointing out one of the D2’s strengths that wasn’t mentioned. The machines you mentioned may very well be just as good. I haven’t used them, so I can’t say one is as good as or better than another without trying it for myself. I think a lot of it is just personal preference anyway. Some folks might not care for the additional features on the higher end units, but there will always be people that do. If it does get to the point that mid tier detectors offer everything found on high end models, the sales figures will surely show it and manufacturers will have to make adjustments. Good for all of us.

 

[Diga]

Yes RH, some will find that the more descriptive audio of the D2 is beneficial to them, but in the context of my point, PWM / Square Tones isn't a feature that will sway the masses.

With that cleared up, I'm not sure what you mean, when you said, "I’m not a beep n dig detectorist. Too much trash in the ground for these old bones to dig everything that beeps. So, a descriptive audio is a very important feature to me."

Ok, I take that back, because I do understand the old bones part! Aside from that, when I want gold jewelry, I dig everything nonferrous. As such, no descriptive audio is going to help with that. When I want coins, I dig only the high conductors IDs. No descriptive audio is going to help with that either. So, how exactly are you finding descriptive audio beneficial?

 

[Rattlehead]

I can better identify what’s beneath the coil due to the audio. It gives a lot of nuance on good targets vs unwanted targets that read in the accepted range.

Copied from my comparison between the D2 and Manticore:

Audio is #1 on my list because it’s the first thing that stops me in my tracks, and it tells me a lot about the target. More than ID. More than Target Trace or XY. When it comes to audio, the Deus 2 is unmatched in my opinion. When I say it has descriptive audio, what I mean is you can hear the soft edges of a round target. You can hear the roughness of a misshapen target. You can hear the forced sound of iron, even when it falses. No other metal detector I’ve used gives as much audible info as a Deus running Pitch or Full Tones.

You’d likely need to use a Deus 2 for a while to see exactly what I mean.

 

[jmaclen]

I am lucky that I can own the Manticore, Deus 2, an Equinox 800 and Legend. It's not because I have lots of money. Heck, most of my income comes from my Social Security check. What I do have is plenty of time, good enough health to detect and an intense love for metal detecting wherever I am. I like having metal detectors that can do it all as in, detect a wide range of target sizes and conductivity in a wide range of environments. So I get to compare them pretty closely.

I don't currently have a favorite, but I gotta say that the Legend is one heck of a metal detector for between $499 and $699 US. It has every feature that I could want aside from the 2D Manticore display and PWM and Square Wave audio choices that Deus 2 has. I don't care for PWM audio much unless I need the absolute maximum depth so I only use it on my Deep HC custom program. I have not had a chance to really concentrate on the Manticore 2D screen yet either. However, it does offer more information than just an ID plotter. Dig, sometimes things are not as black and white with no nuances as they might seem. I am already starting to see some of that with the Manticore's 2D screen but I'm not ready to say much yet.

Deus 2 having descriptive audio is a very real thing. All of the four VLFs I own have descriptive audio capabilities but Deus 2 has the most by far even using its Square or High Square audio. I dig a lot of US nickels because I like them (it's a Jeff/Jefferson thing) and I know from experience that if I can recognize the typical US nickel audio response (not just the actual pitch of that tone but the shape or boundaries of that pitch and how percussive it is while also being mellow) that I also have a really good shot at the occasional gold ring that often shares a target ID or two with US nickels. I get fooled sometimes, but not often. I happily bring home plenty of nickels. Another example of descriptive audio is how the Manticore and especially Deus 2 (Legend sometimes) can literally give me audio responses that describe the threads on screws and bolts, the crenelations on a crown bottle cap and their own distinctive sounds for coin spills. The Equinox 600/800 could sort of do that but not like Deus 2 especially.

So, these more expensive detectors like the Manticore and Deus 2 have R&D costs and name brand valuation rolled into their overall MSRP. Personally I don't think those two added features are worth the price difference and I don't think for one second that the Legend is $700 less of a detector than a Manticore or a full Deus 2. $200 would be my guess for what the price difference should be. So should the full Legend be $500 more or should the Manticore and full Deus 2 be $500 less???

 

[Diga]

Jeff,

I wholeheartedly agree that it should be about a $200 price difference. Name brand is of course a major factor in the final price. As far as R&D goes, we simply don't know how much each company spends on R&D in relation to profit, nor do we know how much of that R&D cost is blended into the price. However, Nokta has got the R&D and the patents for the Invenio technology, and diving deep into their website, I was surprised by how much innovation they do into detection technology, that is outside of hobby metal detectors. In addition, Dilek has said that their prices aren't high, because they focus on volume sales, instead of large markups.

Regarding TT on the Manti:

If you swing over a high conductor coin, TT will show a dot in the general vicinity of high conductors. BUT, the TID shows a definitive number for the coin. As such, the regular TID gives more accurate identification. There's still nonferrous co-located targets, as well as co-located nonferrous and ferrous targets. In those instances, the regular TID and tones, will give the correct identification just as TT would, but in those instances, some might find TT more pleasing to look at, or perhaps easier for a beginner to decipher.

 

[Cherry Picker]

I do agree with your conclusion, for the most part. When talking depth/performance, I don't think we've see much difference between the low-end and high-end as clearly as it used to be. It used to be the difference between a $300 detector and a $1,000 detector was performance. Now it is mostly features/options. Not that it is a necessarily bad thing, but just not the same. I will also put a note in for the two things, I feel, separate the top-end. Of course, the D2s weight is the indisputable champ, but I have to say the tones are also different than the other top models.

It has already been discussed to some degree so I won't bother with details, just putting in my agreement that the tones of the D2, and D1 for that fact, have a lot more to say than its competitors in my experience.

 

[Diga]

Hi CP.

There's no shortage of times that I've heard D2 users talk about the audio options. Yet, when I've asked for an exact example of how it allows them to dig more treasure, no exact example is given.

...and I'm not talking about iron identification, because come on, iron identification is easy with just about any detector. Iron falsing doesn't apply either, because true iron falsing means you get perfect audio and a nonferrous ID, despite the object being ferrous.

 

[cellrdwellr]

I would have to agree with you Dig. I think if most hunters spent more time with what they are currently using, and actually LEARNED a detector before jumping for the latest and greatest, they would be MUCH more successful. I'm more than content with my old equinox, and I've had it for years, and it still teaches me new things all the time. I spent the first 5 or so years chasing the unicorns, and the grass was almost never greener on the the other side. The only machine that really wowed me was the CTX. Great machine, but way too heavy and expensive. I can't speak about the new top end models, but I have yet to see anywhere close to the amount of "look at all these finds my old machine missed" type posts that we saw when the early SMF models were released. I wouldn't mind trying a D2, but not at that price tag. I'll wait a few years when the D3 comes out and get one half the price

 

[Cherry Picker]

Hi CP.

There's no shortage of times that I've heard D2 users talk about the audio options. Yet, when I've asked for an exact example of how it allows them to dig more treasure, no exact example is given.

...and I'm not talking about iron identification, because come on, iron identification is easy with just about any detector. Iron falsing doesn't apply either, because true iron falsing means you get perfect audio and a nonferrous ID, despite the object being ferrous.

For me, it was pretty easy to identify iron by wiggling the coil back. In 90% of cases, when I would wiggle the coil and back off the target, the iron would pop right out with a grunt, whereas a conductive target would remain a conductive tone to the end. That is just one example of how the tones are different. I felt I could hear the size and shape of a target better with the D2. A good solid target had a small tight tone. Trash has a tendency to spread a tone out and it sounds fatter. I also felt it did a good job of being able to give multiple tones at the same time. That is to say, if you have a conductive target in with an iron target, you can hear the iron grunt in with the conductive tone. Most of the other detectors I've used can give an iron grunt before or after the conductive tone, but not at the same time. I attribute this to the D2s pitch settings.

 

[Diga]

Most of the other detectors I've used can give an iron grunt before or after the conductive tone, but not at the same time.

At the same time? I don't think the D2 has 2 channel audio

Regardless, I'm kind of confused by that example, because as long as the iron volume is set accordingly, and it's not discriminated out, then it would be one crappy detector if it didn't give an iron grunt along with a nonferrous tone.

I'm also not understanding your point that, "A good solid target had a small tight tone. Trash has a tendency to spread a tone out and it sounds fatter". Well, a pulltab will have a small tight tone, just as small foil would, a gold ring would, or a coin would. That's just a product of how metal detectors work , not a product of the audio. Unless I'm misinterpreting your point?

 

[UT_Dave]

When I want coins, I dig only the high conductors IDs. No descriptive audio is going to help with that either. So, how exactly are you finding descriptive audio beneficial?

...but I only use 1 tone. I set my detector up to only beep on targets that I told it to, so when it does that, I dig. There's no need for me, nor want, to hear an orchestra

For someone that uses disc along with one tone, to understand the utility of audio nuance, seems difficult. I don't think anyone can really explain it in text to you in a fashion you will accept. You'd just have to learn it on your own I think. Which you seem unwilling to do. Because, you seem to not even believe believe it's possible to get target information from the audio beyond one tone and a VID. Is that the gist?

If it is, well, carry on.

I like to run all tones, as many as the machine can give. Without notching. My opinion, it really helps a lot in many, many detecting scenarios. Pulling clad and sliver out of collocated aluminum trash, being just one. There are many others. But if you really believe the clipped audio of disc, combined with one tone, is as effective as full tones without disc in that scenario, I don't think anything anyone could write will sway you.

- Dave

 

[jmaclen]

Jeff,

I wholeheartedly agree that it should be about a $200 price difference. Name brand is of course a major factor in the final price. As far as R&D goes, we simply don't know how much each company spends on R&D in relation to profit, nor do we know how much of that R&D cost is blended into the price. However, Nokta has got the R&D and the patents for the Invenio technology, and diving deep into their website, I was surprised by how much innovation they do into detection technology, that is outside of hobby metal detectors. In addition, Dilek has said that their prices aren't high, because they focus on volume sales, instead of large markups.

Regarding TT on the Manti:

If you swing over a high conductor coin, TT will show a dot in the general vicinity of high conductors. BUT, the TID shows a definitive number for the coin. As such, the regular TID gives more accurate identification. There's still nonferrous co-located targets, as well as co-located nonferrous and ferrous targets. In those instances, the regular TID and tones, will give the correct identification just as TT would, but in those instances, some might find TT more pleasing to look at, or perhaps easier for a beginner to decipher.

Like I said before, Digalicous you tend to make things black and white, left or right, and in this case "But, the TID shows a definitive number for the coin." That would usually be a big NO from my experience. I don't know how to explain this but these latest SMF detectors rarely show just one target ID for a target unless it is a slam dunk target. I didn't buy those detectors so they can detect and identify slam dunk targets that the new Minelab Voyager can't miss on. I bought these latest SMF detectors for the tough targets which rarely have simple, one digit target IDs so at least for the Manticores 2D screen, I rarely see a dot. I see blobs, elongated slashes and mostly shapes with faded edges etc. Something similar happens with the XY screen on Deus 2. I rarely get a beautiful, bold straight line and Deus 2's numerical target IDs are decidedly better than the Manticore's. Those slight to wider changes in the target ID also enhance the audio experience using these detectors and give me a lot of information. Then at least on the Manticore 2D screen there are non ferrous target representations that stretch up into the upper ferrous range and those that drop a bit into the lower ferrous limit range. The same happens with the visuals on the XY screen. Just getting a straight forward, perfectly centered dot on the non ferrous line or a perfect straight line on the XY screen and one target ID is not what makes these two visual aids important and useful. Like I said, I am just beginning to interpret more information on both of the visual ID representation aids.

Something similar is true for the audio, especially on Deus 2. Listening carefully to the edges of the tones, the time between the tones during sweeps, slighty brassy/brash tones, faint crinkly tones, tones that end abruptly, tones that are still audible past the edge of the coil and fade out........I could keep on going but again, Deus 2 and the Manticore simply do not have door bell type audio.

 

[Diga]

Hi Dave.

When a hunter is looking for gold jewelry, they typically dig everything. So, if the hunter is digging everything, then audio doesn't matter.

If a hunter wants the epitome of unmasking coins in nonferrous trash, then using a smaller sized elliptical DD coil, along with a higher recovery speed, and a very low weighted SMF mode, or a SF of around 2 to 5 khz, are far more important factors than any audio.

 

[Diga]

Jeff,

My example was for a target that gives a solid ID, or something very close to that. I'm not sure why you seemingly don't get such IDs often, especially when the target is honed in on with the short wiggle.