Double blind study comparing dowsing to metal detecting silver coins

[Tom_in_CA]

... there are many things man does not understand and can't explain that happens anyway. .....

.... the ability to sense changes in the earth's sources has been presented as a logical explaintion as to why it does seem to work ......

Sure. And that's why we can grant, for sake of discussion, the "how". So the question is not "HOW". The question is "IF". Hence, let's see (in a double -blind test) IF it works.

THEN we can muse over HOW it works, once we know IF it works See ?

.... was no proof and I was simplely showing there is .....

This "proof" that you speak of, is of the anecdotal subjective testimony type. Nothing wrong with that, as a good starting point. But it's not double-blind scientific tests.

....If not for it we'd still be afraid to sail of the edge of the earth......

Using your own example, this is easy : Guess how mankind knew that we could sail to the edge of the earth w/o falling off ? Presto : It could be shown. It was proved. Ok, great, let's do that for dowsing too. Then, likewise, we too will know .

So as you can see, your example actually shows the opposite of the point you were trying to make.

.... there are those who have whitnessed it and .....

Ok, but ask yourself, what is the "it", that they have "witnessed" ? It is the efficacy of dowsing. Ok, great ! Let's see it !

Unlike bigfoot (your example) you can't corral bigfoot and have him available for study. However, we CAN "corral dowsers" . And say to them: "Great. Let's see it ". So actually, the bigfoot example implodes on itself as well

 

[Cherry Picker]

"Sure. And that's why we can grant, for sake of discussion, the "how". So the question is not "HOW". The question is "IF". Hence, let's see (in a double -blind test) IF it works."

And so Bigfoot does not exist because it can't pass your "double-blinmd" test?

What about those labeled as miricles? A person is able to see after loosing sight and the medical community saying it is impossible, they will never see again. A person comes out of a coma after 30 years. Can't be explained and would not pass your test, but happens, and quite often. A person losses 3/4 of their brain yet is able to full function and think when they should be dead. Would not pass your test, but happens anyway. <--- my point.

We know very little about what the human brain is capable of. I prefer not to put limitations just because I don't understand.

 

[atomicbrh]

couple of observations on this video :

The guy is looking for ring. Right ? Then notice that at : 6:39 & 7:20 he passed random persons on the hiking trail. Right ? Notice the rods did not turn towards those people. Are we to assume that none of them were wearing any rings ?

Next: Freeze it at 8:16 to 8:17 . You will see the obvious tilt of the right hand has caused it to turn. The ideomotor effect.

However, to be fair to dowsers, they will not deny the tilting of the rods. But will probably say that it's all a part of the "body's tuning to radio compass waves" blah blah

Eg.: Like birds flying south for the winter : Sure, the bird physically turns and flaps his wings (does physical motions) that end up making the bird fly south. But the BIGGER QUESTION is : How did the bird know to flap his wings and physically turn the southward direction ?

It's like a compass in his brain, etc.... SO TOO is the dowser .... yes.... tilting the rods. But with some sort of 6th sense to know WHERE to tilt it at.

If so, then I say : GREAT ! Let's see this "knowledge of where to tilt" with a double-blind test.

I always thought that if dowsing with metal rods were to be successful, the only scientific explanation would be the detection of some type of eddy currents resulting from the interaction of the buried target and soil. Rings and coins would be too small to cause enough significant eddy currents to be detected by simple rods. Again, there has to be two categories of dowsers: (1)The one who thinks they can find any object with their special brain powers and (2) the guy who digs ditches for a living and is trying to do everything possible not to hit a buried utility line.

 

[maxxkatt]

I'm not saying one belief over the other but that there are many things man does not understand and can't explain that happens anyway. Could this be one?

You guys simple stated there was no proof and I was simplely showing there is for those with an open mind. Yes, me finding that coin you can come up with many explainations as to how it worked. Basically the only real explination you can give is luck. OK, but had I not been trying dowsing in the first place I never would have been out there to luck on to the coin. So, one could make the argument I found it by dowing.

The concept of man possing the ability to sense changes in the earth's sources has been presented as a logical explaintion as to why it does seem to work in some cases and is well dicumented in videos. The just digging a hole until you hit water doesn't work. That is not what they do, they find the best sources. We can't explain how birds have the ability to follow leigh lines in the earth and have nothing but the idea they can and believe it. Why not people?

I just see some of you so bent on proving it is impossible to look beyond the possible as we understand it. It is called an open mind. If not for it we'd still be afraid to sail of the edge of the earth.

What still bothers me is that the belief that dowsing works still exists after all these attempts to explain it away. Like Bigfoot. The idea that such a creature could exist and stay hidden seems impossible and the sightings have tried to be explained away with logic, yet, the belief still exists. Why? because there are those who have whitnessed it and refuse to think it is just a hoax. I believe dowsing has survived for the same reasons. No matter how many explanation people come up with it just doesn't saticfy those who have whitneseed it work.

"What still bothers me is that the belief that dowsing works still exists after all these attempts to explain it away."

If what Detector is saying is true, then you would not necessarily need rods or tree forks. You could just stretch out your arms and say you index finger or thumb twitched when you came over water.

I think (but don't really know) that they use tree forks and rods for dramatic effect to really impress the person they are scamming. And it does not have to be for money, but for well maybe the attention that the dowser is getting from his community.

And as Tom said, failures always have plausible reasons given by the dowser. Even they might just say, there just is no water on your land.

The dowser is ALWAY in a win-win situation to scam people. If he finds ground water that is almost everywhere there are trees then he is the hero to the community. If he does not, well there is just no water on your land, sorry bud.

Remember in a drought trees say 12" in diameter must have 120-150 gallons of water each day. Where do you think this water is coming from? The ground water of course. So you notice where the dowser found the water was quite near those trees in the back ground.

dowsers are just so very crafty when it comes to convincing people they have the "gift" of dowsing. This is a human condition and it goes back thousands of years.

Now you go to areas where there are no plants or trees, guess what there probably is no ground water that the tree roots can reach. You would have to dig many hundreds of feet to find water. But as the USGS states there is water basically everywhere under the ground. His statement is especially true when there are trees around.

The guy in the video with the forked stick and the girl has probably a 99.99999% chance of finding water on that land with the trees. I could do the exact same thing with an arrowhead hanging from a string and carefully make it swing somewhere over the same piece of land.

Or I could get on old metal detector and call it a water detector and when it beeped a certain way tell the rubes that they need to dig here. They would be so impressed with my water detector.

 

[Cherry Picker]

LOL maxxkat. You presume I acknowledge that dowsing works when I'm doing nothuing but giving my opinion that I believe there must be something there, or dowsing would have been no longer a matter of discussion. You feel people are being conned. For many thousands of years I guess. Quite the long-running con that has yet to be eliminated don't you think?

Once again I point out the theroy <-- note: that has been used to explain the ability. It has been suggested that all humans, and probably animals as well, have always had the ability to find water as an survival instinct. The ability to reconnize and use this instinct was lost over time as the need faded. Dowsing rods are simple tools to help focus that natural instinct reaction so that man can identify them.

And again I say, I am not saying dowsing works, simply that I believe there seems to be something to it or it would have died out long ago. People have been dowsing water for thousands of years. Were they just doing it to con people then?

Until I see evidence to the contrary I prefer to keep an open mind. Life has many stranger unexplained phenomenons to explorer.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...And so Bigfoot does not exist because it can't pass your "double-blinmd" test?....

"Does" exist ? Or "could" exist ?

Logically speaking we can not say Bigfoot doesn't exist. Because, sure : He might "always run and hide" when anyone goes looking for him. But rest-assured: He exists. Eh ? At what point do we follow the preponderance of evidence ?

This is why you'll notice I don't say that dowsing can't/won't/doesn't work (as some skeptics say). I say : GREAT ! Let's see dowsing work !

And unlike bigfoot (who can't be studied because he runs and hides) dowsers CAN be studied. And they make their claims ALL THE TIME . Ie.: that their craft is reliable and not random chance eventual odds. So the VERY STANDARDS and definitions and claims that dowsers MAKE THEMSELVES : Sink their own ship. And put them in a different class than the big-foot analogy.

...What about those labeled as miricles? ....

If something BY DEFINITION identifies itself as immaterial , then sure : We can't put it in a test-tube and measure it. Because it is, by definition: Immaterial.

And if we label something paranormal (such that it's got a mind of its own and can't be harnessed to control it), then sure : We can have an "out", when the miracle doesn't happen. Eg.: "God's answer was 'no' today", etc....

So a few answers to this :

A) dowsers that say it's paranormal find themselves at odds with many other dowsers. The other dowsers will chalk it up to natural/physical means (or "unexplained" science, blah blah). So NOW you have a debate between dowsers themselves . Doh !

And why do some dowsers opt for science/natural-physical instead ? EASY: Lest they be accused of relying on spooks, occult, etc.... In other words : Why stop there ? Heck, why not rely on ouija boards or seances ?

Therefore there is only a small minority of dowsers that go down this path. Or, humorously , they will "jump back and forth across the aisle". Ie.: If they are shown there is no physical scientific merit, they jump to the miracle/paranormal side of the aisle. But if they feel the heat there (that this amounts to spooks and occult), they jump back to the science side of the aisle. It's actually quite amusing to see the shuffle

B) And even if we DO accept paranormal (thus excusing themselves from repetitive results), there's a big problem : Because the results that dowsers claim to have is : Reliability. Ie.: NOT simply random chance . Ie.: that it CAN be done. And that it's NOT whimsical choices by-the-spirits.

Therefore, going by the very claims that dowsers makes (no matter WHAT the "how" is), we can test it. Based on their own claims of repeatable results. THEY are the ones repeatedly saying "It works". So what's not fair about saying : "Great, let's see it".

This is far different from a theological system that says "thou shalt not test...." from the git-go.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....We know very little about what the human brain is capable of. I prefer not to put limitations just because I don't understand.

Sure. But what we CAN understand , is : Results. So the issue is not "things we don't understand" or "things about the brain we don't understand". The issue is about things we DO understand . Namely : Uniform and repeated experiences. Claims that DO INDEED have their roots in material physical results.

THAT is the claim we're looking into. NOT things that "can't be known"

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... I am not saying dowsing works, simply that I believe there seems to be something to it or it would have died out long ago. People have been dowsing water for thousands of years. ...

We do not measure truth by popular vote over time. Ie.: The number of people who opine something, and the length of time, is not a measure of truth.

And actually, if we were to take a vote over time, up-to-today, I think you would find that there's always been a vote against it. I would venture to say it's been niche. Not mainstream belief.

For example, using your own standards (of "societal approval & vote"), let's just do a thought experiment :

If you were to "poll the panel of scientists today" (heck, even just random citizens) asking "does dowsing work ?", I'd venture to say that dowsing would not get the vote of confidence.

Ok, so by your own standard , you would be forced to say that therefore : It doesn't work.

NOT EVEN I use that as a standard to conclude "Therefore It doesn't work". Likewise you should not use votes in antiquity to be a "measure of truth" either. Truth has NEVER been decided by "popular vote". Truth is objective, not subjective. Ok ?

.... Were they just doing it to con people then? ...

I believe that dowsers are quite sincere, and not seeking to "con people". Ok ?

 

[Cherry Picker]

Allow me to throw out a change in subject simply because this one seems to be stale.

Say you have hunted with a friend for over 35 years. Both you and him are very well experienced in using a metal detector, and metal detecting. Over the years 97% of the time one person ends up hunting apperently the best parts of a site and find the best stuff at each site. We're talking like vacant lots, parks and schools. Each has hunted together and alone yet the same guy seems to always go home with the best finds.

At what point, if any, does this move from a realm of sheer luck to something else? I maen at some point, 97% of the time, you would think something else is making the difference. Remember, they each hunt these site together and alone so they both have hunted every possible area, both equally proficient with their detectors, and both well versed in the proper ways to hunt a site. What do you think you would attribute to an obvious misbalance in recoveries?

And this can be scientifically tested to be found real.

I'm sure all of us who hunted a lot with friends have that one that always seems to find the best stuff.

 

[maxxkatt]

Back to the original post.

It is about dowsing for coins.
It is about dowsing for coins.
It is about dowsing for coins.

Nobody has shown me any even close to being valid videos or reasoning that dowsing for coins works at all.

It seems that rather than answer this simple statement that dowsing for coins is bogus, posters tend to go all over the place with examples that have absolutely no basis for anser the question. Pro dowsing folks either ignore my question (for the 3rd or 4th time) or change the subject and argue something else total different from dowsing for coins.

Someone from the pro dowsing crowd come forth and answer this question.

Show me proof that dowsing for coins silver or gold actually works! I categorically say you cannot show me proof. Because if it works we would all be buying dowsing rods and not $700 - $2,500 metal detectors.

And don't give the bogus answer well dowsing won't work for just anybody, they have to have the special gift. Yeah? Show me one with an actual video proof of someone finding gold or silver coins with that special dowsing gift.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... At what point, if any, does this move from a realm of sheer luck to something else? ....

In the example you gave, a double-blind test and proof has occurred : The guy that you're talking about HAS INDEED shown that his claimed-purported-ability is NOT random chance eventual luck.

I would be MORE THAN HAPPY to see the example that you give, be replicated in dowsing test circles.


So I'm not sure how this relates to the subject at hand.

 

[atomicbrh]

Back to the original post.

It is about dowsing for coins.
It is about dowsing for coins.
It is about dowsing for coins.

Nobody has shown me any even close to being valid videos or reasoning that dowsing for coins works at all.

It seems that rather than answer this simple statement that dowsing for coins is bogus, posters tend to go all over the place with examples that have absolutely no basis for anser the question. Pro dowsing folks either ignore my question (for the 3rd or 4th time) or change the subject and argue something else total different from dowsing for coins.

Someone from the pro dowsing crowd come forth and answer this question.

Show me proof that dowsing for coins silver or gold actually works! I categorically say you cannot show me proof. Because if it works we would all be buying dowsing rods and not $700 - $2,500 metal detectors.

And don't give the bogus answer well dowsing won't work for just anybody, they have to have the special gift. Yeah? Show me one with an actual video proof of someone finding gold or silver coins with that special dowsing gift.

Maxx,
I do not remember reading any reply by any forum member stating that coins can be found by dowsing. I do not remember reading any reply by any forum member that dowsers have a special gift. The dowsers I know think they can hand anybody their rods and that person can get the same results on buried utility lines as they do. I do not think anybody disagrees with you on the coin thing.

 

[graybeard]

Anyone that basis their opinion ( solely ) on someone else's opinion is someone that you can't rely on for information.

If you don't try something for your self, how or why do you think that you need to voice an opinion on anything?

An opinion about anything that you haven't tried is just meaningless words.

 

[atomicbrh]

Anyone that basis their opinion ( solely ) on someone else's opinion is someone that you can't rely on for information.

If you don't try something for your self, how or why do you think that you need to voice an opinion on anything?

An opinion about anything that you haven't tried is just meaningless words.

After all these threads, I am fairly motivated now to make some dowsing rods and try them.
Materials are cheap and it does not take much time to make them.
Anybody else feeling the same?
Tom?

 

[atomicbrh]

Dowsing Rods Legitimate Company

In perusing the HOT RUG site I found a photo of the Long range locator LRL 2000D. It includes dowsing rods. hooked to some kind of device. The formation of electrical fields in soil is explained. As I thought, eddy currents have to be formed. Copied from the website:

The depth of work is 60 meters and the distance ahead – 5 km. The locator can detect the exact location, depth and composition of metal.

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This locator contains 15 programs, 8 of which for lead, gold, aluminum, silver, bronze, copper and brass, diamonds, iron and 7 that can be customized by the user (personal channels for adjustment in search of gold and silver, as they vary in frequency).

The depth of work is 60 meters and the distance ahead – 5 km. The locator can detect the exact location, depth and composition of metal.

Long range locator LRL 2000D

Price: $2900

Distant treasure locator Mole PROSPECTOR

The eliminator is a product which is needed when looking for buried treasures. It helps convert the electronic object to the real one. Over time, metals have been surrounded by electric fields which diverge in direction towards the equator. If the operator finds an object line and locates the “right spot” through a long-range product like the LRL2000D, then they must work north-south lines depending on the position of the country and the equator. If the operator has eliminator, it will save a lot of work and nerves involved in object detection, as the eliminator will return the electronic object to the real one.

Digital Eliminator for LRL 2000D

The kit includes:

– Electronic control unit;

– Power unit;

– Dowsing rods;

– Receiver (for the signals from the dowsing rods);

– Cables for connection between modules;

– Probes for contact with the ground;

– Compass;

– Batteries;

– Automatic battery charger;

– Instructions for use.
The eliminator consists of:

• Electronic unit;

• Two probes;

• Automatic battery charger;

• 2 x 16 m black cable that connects both probes to the electronic unit;

• Compass.
Price: $599.00
http://hotfootrug.com/Delta_Pulse.html

 

[Cherry Picker]

Back to the original post.

It is about dowsing for coins.
It is about dowsing for coins.
It is about dowsing for coins.

Nobody has shown me any even close to being valid videos or reasoning that dowsing for coins works at all.

It seems that rather than answer this simple statement that dowsing for coins is bogus, posters tend to go all over the place with examples that have absolutely no basis for anser the question. Pro dowsing folks either ignore my question (for the 3rd or 4th time) or change the subject and argue something else total different from dowsing for coins.

Someone from the pro dowsing crowd come forth and answer this question.

Show me proof that dowsing for coins silver or gold actually works! I categorically say you cannot show me proof. Because if it works we would all be buying dowsing rods and not $700 - $2,500 metal detectors.

And don't give the bogus answer well dowsing won't work for just anybody, they have to have the special gift. Yeah? Show me one with an actual video proof of someone finding gold or silver coins with that special dowsing gift.

By all means let's stick to the parremeters you have set down. Is there a paticular date the coin must be? Can he stand on both feet? As was mentioned, I don't know of anyone that has claimed people can find a coin dowsing. In fact, I think I suggested just the opposite.


Tom, I propose a simple way to test my questioning. Simply send 2 different people into random sites, and see who comes out with the best find more than 50% of the time. Wouldn't that seem to indicate something beside random luck? Especially if the comaprison reached to the 70% of the time.

Now it would to me, but to some of you this still might just be a luck guy. And you may be right. I just happened to believe we have abilities we use daily that we don't even realize, but can be measured if tested. I believe at some point it leaves the realm of luck and something else must be at work.

I just can't say, with all the witness accounts, that it can't work because I haven't seen it myself, and I don't trust the videos I've seen.

I think atomicbrh suggested a perfectly legitimate scientific theroy as to how it could work. Should be testable as well.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.....An opinion about anything that you haven't tried is just meaningless words.

I don't agree with this statement. It doesn't survive a test drive. Eg.: Have you tried arsenic lately ? If not, how can you personally say it's not good to use for salad dressing ?

On the contrary : You rely on OTHERS that have tried it. And concluded : It's not suitable for salad dressing.

Same for dowsing : We ARE, in effect "trying it". By virtue of those that have tried it, tested it, etc.... We can go by their results.

Why do you think that "consumer reviews" are relevant ? People rely on consumer reviews ALL THE TIME.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... I am fairly motivated now to make some dowsing rods and try them.
Materials are cheap and it does not take much time to make them.
Anybody else feeling the same?
Tom?

Yes. I'm "Feeling the same". Which is why I perpetually say "Let's see it".

Remember, it's not a skeptic's claims that are being challenged. It's the CLAIMANT'S claims. Therefore the burden was never on us TO BEGIN WITH. We never made any claims.

So why this perpetual drumbeat for a skeptic to try it ? If someone ELSE is ALREADY claiming repeated results that are better than random chance, then : No need for me to try it. I can merely look at their results. That's why I keep saying : "Bring it on. Let's see it".

And besides, if the non-dowser tried it, and found that it didn't work, the dowsers would merely say that it proves nothing at all. They would just say : "you need more practice" or "you don't have the gift", blah blah blah

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... Simply send 2 different people into random sites, and see who comes out with the best find more than 50% of the time. ....

Detector : I do not think you fully understand the meaning of "double blind". If the sites were "random", then the test is not double blind.

Because in that case, the person going to one random site, might be happen-chance going to a site where more coins/goodies happened to be IN THE FIRST PLACE. Versus another "random site" might simply have been a lame site with no goodies.

 

[maxxkatt]

Exactlly. As I've said I am a sceptic even having whitnessed what I have, but this guy either put on an elaborut hoax to gain nothing but to make me think it was real, or there was something to it. Which is the case I do not know. What doesn't make sense is why he would go to such a great extent to gain nothing?

As far as luck or playing the odds? yes that probably explains what I did, but it does not change the fact I found a silver walker half in an 2 acre field with a pair of coat hangers. That is a fact backed up with a whitness that is on here. DCJohn. I'm sure it was pure coincidence that we followed the coat hanger to an open field, and just happened apon a silver walker in an open field, but it does not change that fact it happened. So in fact, I can say I used dowsing rods and found a silver half in a 2 acre field.

And you could have said, you were wearing brown shoes with red sock and found the coil. Heck when I was a kid, I found arrowheads in plowed fields when I was out hunting with a .22 rifle. The rifle didn't find the arrowheads.

Or I could have said I am going to find arrow heads by following the compass arrow north and looked down halfway into the field and found the arrowhead. Did the compass do it? If so, it had a 1 out of 360 degrees chance of leading me to that spot. Does not prove anything about things other than your eyeballs or a metal detectors ability to find a silver coin in a field.