Burnt Out about the Manticore

[randy]

I think the metal detector companies need to seriously address EMI with better coil design and shielding, because the so called "noise reduction" feature on detectors does almost nothing. It does nothing on my Simplex, Vanquish, or Legend. It does nothing on videos I've seen with the Nox and the D2 as well.

How would you pass the TX/RX but shield the random noise at the same frequency? Perhaps there is a way, but to me, it seems common sensical that it has not been done yet, at least for consumer level machines.

As for "noise reduction", it certainly works on the E-Trac. I don't make videos, but I have proven this to my satisfaction on wild targets by running thru each channel on the same iffy target. Of course, I only have to prove it works to me, since I have no incentive to sell E-Tracs or other machines with noise cancel channels.

As a global example, around here, channel 11 on the E-Trac is usually way too chatty, with lots of high tone blips. Much more than any other channel. There is one site I could only hunt using channel 6, regardless of the channel it chose. I just manually set it to 6. I have many more examples of this with the E-Trac in my notes.

Now, I noise cancel with the coil on the ground, not in the air as they recommend, so it could be mineralization rather than EMI. Who knows, and who cares, as long as the silver keeps flying out of the ground. I don't have a 'scope, so I don't know if "SMF" is a wide range of VLF frequencies in the ranges we are talking about, and noise cancel shifts them a bit, or if it is really a single frequency with a bunch of harmonics. Of course, ML won't tell you, and the online discussion of this seems to be all speculation.

But, one of the reasons the E-Trac works so well as you set response "long" or sizing pinpointing or whatever it is, and you can tell a coin-sized target from EMI (at least I can), so I can run the machine hot and get away with it. I don't like machines that don't have this; hopefully the Manticore will, and I won't care.

 

[Cherry Picker]

I think I'll do some testing today during my tot lot shuffle. I got a few that have really bad EMI and others that have none. Well, none you can hear, and I'm betting there will be no loss in depth from the locations with high EMI and the ones with no EMI.

 

[UT_Dave]

With my 800 in urban areas, I end up using 20K SF a lot. Anything lower is as unusable as MF. When it's really bad, I end up with the 6" coil and 20K. Sensitivity to micro trash is pretty irritating.

I think an approach the Muticore is supposedly taking to EMI mitigation is an application of the increased power to increase the signal part of the signal-noise ratio.

I hope it's noticeably better. We'll see...

- Dave

 

[Diga]

With my 800 in urban areas, I end up using 20K SF a lot. Anything lower is as unusable as MF. When it's really bad, I end up with the 6" coil and 20K. Sensitivity to micro trash is pretty irritating.

Ya, micro trash is more of an issue with higher frequencies. Fortunately, it typically identifies as iron, or right above iron. I just ignore those signals.

 

[Cherry Picker]

it would seem to make sense that increasing the power to the ground will cause a stronger response from a metal target, which should allow a decreased receiving sensitivity, because the signal is stronger, which would reduce the EMI noise.

 

[sube]

it would seem to make sense that increasing the power to the ground will cause a stronger response from a metal target, which should allow a decreased receiving sensitivity, because the signal is stronger, which would reduce the EMI noise.

At the same time lowering sensitivity lowers the emi and the targets response if it hears it with emi does not matter sensitivity high or low .
Polyphonic audio lets you hear 2 targets at once the ctx would only allow one target with audio but would leave a target trace for the other but without audio now we can hear both without looking at the screen +++++ i say this will be a great tool .
As far as long audio e-trac ctx i think the manticore has it in the enhanced audio but voc is there also which is a continues audio meaning not resetting between targets.sube

 

[Cherry Picker]

Well today's tot lot shuffle showed one thing. EMI didn't seem to affect depth at all. I went from very noisy to dead quiet and tested depth. It was the same.

It was the same with ground balance. I had a tot lot that GB'd 93 and one that GB'd at 34. A depth test showed no loss in depth with bad ground. Now I left the GB the same for both sites.

VDI and stability was fine in both cases.

 

[Beachhunt1]

Well today's tot lot shuffle showed one thing. EMI didn't seem to affect depth at all. I went from very noisy to dead quiet and tested depth. It was the same.

It was the same with ground balance. I had a tot lot that GB'd 93 and one that GB'd at 34. A depth test showed no loss in depth with bad ground. Now I left the GB the same for both sites.

VDI and stability was fine in both cases.

If you are running the same sensitivity your EMI is not "bad"

If you have to lower the sensitivity you are not getting the same depth.

 

[Cherry Picker]

If you are running the same sensitivity your EMI is not "bad"

If you have to lower the sensitivity you are not getting the same depth.

Yes, but it was not the EMI that caused the loss in depth. It was turning down the sensitivity which you would expect it. I'm just saying EMI, be it hearable or not, did not affect detector performance. Now, I did not test to see if the sensitivity to targets were the same with or without EMI.

So, finding a way to enhance the target signal strength while leaving sensitivity to EMI the same should, in principle, help in bad EMI. Basically, the Manticore concept seems plausible is my point.

 

[Diga]

I just got back from a beach hunt. I did an air test at this beach to see the depth difference at this site, when compared to my backyard.



To recap about my backyard: It has very high emi due to 3 high voltage lines, and a 240 line running diagonally across my yard, to my house. At max sensitivity, SMF modes are unusable due to the emi noise. Ditto for 5,10, and 15 khz. 20 khz is about 50% better, and 40khz is dead silent. However, (and just as Tom Dankowski experienced), I can't reach my detector's depth potential in any SMF mode, or any SF mode. I air tested with a standing liberty quarter, and could only get a solid hit to about 12".

The beach site I went to today, was well away from any cities. It has a serviced campground, and it's right next door to about 20 millionaire's McMansions. Those millionaires must have pitched in for a cell tower, because I get full signal strength on my cell phone at this beach. That's a much stronger signal than I get in almost all areas of my city lol. Anyway, I would consider this site "mid level" when it comes to emi. Emi noise at full sensitivity was about 50% compared to my backyard. That same standing liberty quarter air tested to around 17".

 

[hikerdude]

Science

Nope. I got one ordered and I am eager to try it. But I am not concerned with which detector is best when I can swing them all and enjoy them all.

I don't really care what the poorly contrived tests from Youtubers come up with, not a single one of them employs any level of scientific rigor even remotely approaching that of a high school science fair project, so why would anybody trust them? Also, when confronted with that fact, none of them seem to realize the importance of these basic tenets of scientific rigor, nor do they even know what they are...

I could care less about the science, I care about performance and if the Manitcore (I preordered mine) outperforms the Deus II I will be happier than a pig in !!!!. I did the hipe for a few weeks and now I will wait tell my Manitcore gets here, whenever that is. I know one thing, for me, my Deus II out preforms my Equinox 800 by a long shot. For example today I went out and detected a park I've hunted a hundred times with my NOX and found six wheat pennies and one silver dime that the NOX missed.
HH everyone

 

[AccurateCalls]

I could care less about the science, I care about performance and if the Manitcore (I preordered mine) outperforms the Deus II I will be happier than a pig in !!!!. I did the hipe for a few weeks and now I will wait tell my Manitcore gets here, whenever that is. I know one thing, for me, my Deus II out preforms my Equinox 800 by a long shot. For example today I went out and detected a park I've hunted a hundred times with my NOX and found six wheat pennies and one silver dime that the NOX missed.
HH everyone

I could go to the small park next to me that I have hunted 1,000+ hours in and have seemingly walked everywhere possible and grab a Bounty Hunter Tracker IV and I would manage to pull a few coins or something out of there. That doesn't mean the Nox 800 and the Deus II both missed it and are therefore inferior to the Bounty Hunter Tracker IV.

 

[Cherry Picker]

So far, what I'm finding is that EMI does not affect detector depth, but would limit being able to crank the sensitivity up full blast which would limit higher power to the coil

In my case, it would be no big deal as I've never found the need to crank the sensitivity up. I prefer stability to run on the edge of stability. Even the occasional snap, crackle, and pop, is a no go for me. People may say I'm missing the deep stuff, but so far, testing that theory has not proven to be the case. I think a properly set detector will hit a deep coin in you know what to listen for without the need to run at full sensitivity where bad EMI plays. That is probably why EMI has never been much of an issue for me.

As a side note:I find that the FCC law limits metal detector power output to 5w. I also found that this limit was reached by detectors many years ago. Kind of curious how the Manticore can boost 50% more power, when by law, transmitting power can not exceed 5w.

 

[AccurateCalls]

So far, what I'm finding is that EMI does not affect detector depth, but would limit being able to crank the sensitivity up full blast which would limit higher power to the coil

In my case, it would be no big deal as I've never found the need to crank the sensitivity up. I prefer stability to run on the edge of stability. Even the occasional snap, crackle, and pop, is a no go for me. People may say I'm missing the deep stuff, but so far, testing that theory has not proven to be the case. I think a properly set detector will hit a deep coin in you know what to listen for without the need to run at full sensitivity where bad EMI plays. That is probably why EMI has never been much of an issue for me.

As a side note:I find that the FCC law limits metal detector power output to 5w. I also found that this limit was reached by detectors many years ago. Kind of curious how the Manticore can boost 50% more power, when by law, transmitting power can not exceed 5w.

I am guessing the 50% increase is over the entire time interval of the of the transmitted waveform. I'm guessing it's ability to rapidly cycle between the fundamental frequencies has been improved, especially in the higher band of frequencies. This seems to line up with what Minelab has been claiming about the depth improvements most specifically impacting certain varieties of targets.

Meaning that at any point in time, it's peak output doesn't exceed the limit. But over a short interval of time the sum total power output is improved.

Just a guess though, the claim is rather vague.

 

[maxxkatt]

I learned my lesson with the breathless announcement of the Equinox and subsequent demos and claims. Now I will wait until it gets in the hands of experienced and trusted CTX3030 users and experienced and trusted beach users. And for this go around, I know who are really trusted detectorists in terms of reporting accurately on a new detector. Then and only then would I consider buying one. It is not that I distrust Minelab, just distrust a whole bunch of reporting on any new detector.

 

[yrekadude]

I'd like to learn more about the Manticore.. Sadly though, from a few videos I watched, it has tones that sound just like the Equinox.. I like the tones of the E-Trac much better.. I am still trying to get used to Equinox tones which are less pleasant to the ear IMHO

 

[backwater]

Looks like it has options on tones but in one video it had at least 4 but in another the top selection wasn't there. Who knows! It wont be long before ground freeze's here so I'm going to wait till spring to decide (and save some cash)