Myers Depot Metal Detectors

Double blind study comparing dowsing to metal detecting silver coins

maxxkatt said:
None of the dowsing proponents on this thread will answer the original question or this question....
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katt-maxx, I'm afraid you will lose on this tactic. Because they can indeed show you videos that purport to show results. Granted, they weren't done with double-blind scientific safeguards. BUT NEITHER WERE THE MD'ing live-dig videos done with double-blind safeguards either. :roll:

And as far as ratios of each type video, well go figure : That's not a function of whether the system has merit or not. That's simply a reflection of the # of hobbyists in each venue. And, sure, there's a heck of a lot more md'rs out there, than there are dowsers out there. Hence that's simply reflected in the # of videos we can count. It doesn't spell merit vs no-merit.

So, for example, you will probably find a lot less bird-watching videos on youtube (does that mean birds don't exist ?). Hence, I applaud you for your efforts, but .... it's not conclusive for this purpose.
 
graybeard said:
" .... For science you not only have to show that a BIGFOOT coil works, but you have to explain how it works ..."
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Ok, let's unpack this sentence very carefully : In the first part of the sentence, you seem to agree that we need to show that a bigfoot coil works. And THEN we proceed to discuss HOW it works.

Ok, I'll grant you that. The trouble with this statement, and our current discussion is: That we haven't even gotten to *IF* dowsing works yet. So let's cross THAT bridge first. And THEN we can progress to the "how" it works next. Ok ? So as you can see, your own statement is not helping your side, in this discussion :(

graybeard said:
".... science also say a bumble bee should NOT fly....I see they guessed wrong on that one..."
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You are shooting yourself in the foot once again. Because to go with this example, it only proves the skeptic's point. Because : How do we dispel the notion that bees can't fly ? EASY : We observe them flying. We can even do double-blind scientific tests on the bees , and the results will be the same: Bees can fly. Presto, problem solved.

So to expand this to the current discussion : GREAT ! Let's see dowsing work to find things. Do you see how you just shot yourself in the foot ?

As for a wager: Who said that I, (or anyone else who's ever offered the wager) "wouldn't pay" ?

When these wagers are held, each side can work with an escrow holder. And draft up the terms and conditions of the test ahead of time, so that everyone's clear. And that there is never a "non-payment".
 
Tom_in_CA said:
Ok, let's unpack this sentence very carefully : In the first part of the sentence, you seem to agree that we need to show that a bigfoot coil works. And THEN we proceed to discuss HOW it works.

Ok, I'll grant you that. The trouble with this statement, and our current discussion is: That we haven't even gotten to *IF* dowsing works yet. So let's cross THAT bridge first. And THEN we can progress to the "how" it works next. Ok ? So as you can see, your own statement is not helping your side, in this discussion :(



You are shooting yourself in the foot once again. Because to go with this example, it only proves the skeptic's point. Because : How do we dispel the notion that bees can't fly ? EASY : We observe them flying. We can even do double-blind scientific tests on the bees , and the results will be the same: Bees can fly. Presto, problem solved.

So to expand this to the current discussion : GREAT ! Let's see dowsing work to find things. Do you see how you just shot yourself in the foot ?

As for a wager: Who said that I, (or anyone else who's ever offered the wager) "wouldn't pay" ?

When these wagers are held, each side can work with an escrow holder. And draft up the terms and conditions of the test ahead of time, so that everyone's clear. And that there is never a "non-payment".
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Most everything you have to say, is like a lawyer would do, twist the words around so that makes you feel proud of what you did, so you can think you won any argument.
 
Tom_in_CA said:
Got some links ?

And as far as the 5 vs 6 senses (and/or anything else that might explain the claimed-ability of dowsing), then : Ok, SURE ! Let's see it. I'm game.

And I know the play-book fall-back here will be "It doesn't work all the time". Therefore a failure on a certain day (when a double-blind test is performed) simply means it didn't work on-that-day. NOT that it doesn't work.

Unfortunately this is not the claim, leading up-to-the-tests, that the dowsers are making. Far from it. They claim that "it works", in a predictable way, over-time , and *IS* beyond random chance.

So how about if we extended the double-blind tests to go for every day, for 365 days for a year ? At WHAT POINT can the dowser cease to rely on "bad hair day" as the "out" ? At what point can it EVER be shown to lack merit ? 2 yrs of testing the system ? 5 yrs ? :?:
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Do your own research on Richard Turner. I am not in the habit of spoon feeding people.
He appeared on many live TV programs and interviews.
He proves that what you see is not always reality. That the 5 human senses cannot be fully trusted.
He was blind and could manipulate cards in multiple ways that tricked people with perfect vision.
Videos and lab results can be manipulated in the same fashion.
 
graybeard said:
For science you not only have to show that a BIGFOOT coil works, but you have to explain how it works and what makes it work the way it does. Which nobody is able to do.

Now for the challenge, I remember you stating that you was willing to pay anyone $100.00 if they could show how they locate something.

I never said I would bet with you. If I were to bet with you, which I won't do, it would end out the same as a bet with a lawyer on shooting, he bet $10.00 lost and never paid.

Since you always use science as a reason things not being able to work, remember science also say a bumble bee should NOT fly....I see they guessed wrong on that one.
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Tom has no clue as to how much it really costs for a legitimate research lab to run tests on something like this dowsing phenomena. $100 is a drop in the bucket. There are only a few labs in our country capable of accurately running and documenting tests like that. You can send those labs a detailed request and they will bid on your project. A few of them are:
Sandia National Laboratories
Applied Research Associates
Air Force Research Laboratory
 
atomicbrh said:
....
He was blind and could manipulate cards in multiple ways that tricked people with perfect vision.
Videos and lab results can be manipulated in the same fashion.
Click to expand...


Ok, now I understand you. Thanx.

And I do not think that dowsers "trick" or "manipulate" (deceive, etc...). I think they are quite sincere. They are just sincerely mistaken. Sincerely misinterpreting. Are not seeing the more-likely-explanations for what they interpret as results.

And none of it is malicious or purposed on their end. I am the first to acknowledge that it is easy for us to fall prey to deceiving our own selves.
 
The septic digging crew came out to the jobsite last week. Sure enough an older guy pulled out the dowsing rods to make sure they weren't digging on the water main we had just put in. We all watched as we hadn't seen this before in real life. Those rods crossed right in the middle of the newly filled black compacted dirt of the trench right where we laid it! Not even close to the undisturbed grass on either side! There's your proof guys. Case. Closed.
 
Tom_in_CA said:
Ok, now I understand you. Thanx.

And I do not think that dowsers "trick" or "manipulate" (deceive, etc...). I think they are quite sincere. They are just sincerely mistaken. Sincerely misinterpreting. Are not seeing the more-likely-explanations for what they interpret as results.

And none of it is malicious or purposed on their end. I am the first to acknowledge that it is easy for us to fall prey to deceiving our own selves.
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Tom, until these dowsing threads started on this forum, I had no knowledge of so many hucksters selling "enchanted" dowsing rods, claiming to dowse over paper maps/maps on computer screens and claiming to dowse small items such as coins. No wonder you make the replies about dowsing. All the dowsers in my area are just plain construction people who are attempting to make sure that 811 did not skip any buried utilities and that they miss water lines. The ones I know would never claim what the hucksters are promising.
 
Tom_in_CA said:
IDX-monster, I'd have to break-ranks with you here. All you have to do is simply GRANT them that perhaps it's not "preposterous". And GRANT them their claims that it works. For sake of discussion.

And don't even need to dispute and discuss the "HOW" it might work. Instead : Just gently bring them back to *IF* it works. (not the *how* it works). And simply say : Great ! Show us !

Hence no need to dispute 6th senses, paranormal, science, magnetic attractions, etc..... Just grant them everything they're saying and then say : Great ! Show us.
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True. But since I know that’ll never happen, I just skipped that step.:lol:
 
We are on page 5 and still not a single video. Maybe tomorrow...if the girls don't have me too busy with Christmas stuff I'll cut some coat hangers and try to find a silver coin in our yard...or maybe our water line.
 
Muskrat said:
... but yes. And true story.
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thanx for clarifying.

And I'll bet you dollars to donuts that if you asked that fellow if he had simply been going by subtle visual terrain clues : He would have adamantly denied it. He would be convinced that it was via the efficacy of dowsing.
 
lets see in the first video they admitted to using satellite photos, ground radar and a dowser.

Hmmm, who picked out the location first? he named the water witch last. Didn't see any video of him going over the land and point to x marks the spot and them digging.

Second video, also not convincing. seems like when his daughter or relative was supposedly holding the branch end tight but when the twig dipped she was using her finger tips.

Neither is anything like the hundreds of metal detecting videos where you see the TID or hear the beep and the go pro is filming the whole time watching the detectorist digging the silver coin exactly where the detector said the coin would be locate.

In the second link here is what is going on:

https://www.usgs.gov/special-topics/water-science-school/science/water-dowsing

What does science say about dowsing?

Case histories and demonstrations of dowsers may seem convincing, but when dowsing is exposed to scientific examination, it presents a very different picture. The natural explanation of "successful" water dowsing is that in many areas underground water is so prevalent close to the land surface that it would be hard to drill a well and not find water. In a region of adequate rainfall and favorable geology, it is difficult not to drill and find water!

Some water exists under the Earth's surface almost everywhere. This explains why many dowsers appear to be successful. To locate groundwater accurately, however, as to depth, quantity, and quality, several techniques must be used. Hydrologic, geologic, and geophysical knowledge is needed to determine the depths and extent of the different water-bearing strata and the quantity and quality of water found in each. The area must be thoroughly tested and studied to determine these facts.


Sorry still no CONVINCING video proving dowsing working in real time videos with no editing breaks.
 
maxxkatt said:
lets see in the first video they admitted to using satellite photos, ground radar and a dowser.

Hmmm, who picked out the location first? he named the water witch last. Didn't see any video of him going over the land and point to x marks the spot and them digging.

Second video, also not convincing. seems like when his daughter or relative was supposedly holding the branch end tight but when the twig dipped she was using her finger tips.

Neither is anything like the hundreds of metal detecting videos where you see the TID or hear the beep and the go pro is filming the whole time watching the detectorist digging the silver coin exactly where the detector said the coin would be locate.

In the second link here is what is going on:

https://www.usgs.gov/special-topics/water-science-school/science/water-dowsing

What does science say about dowsing?

Case histories and demonstrations of dowsers may seem convincing, but when dowsing is exposed to scientific examination, it presents a very different picture. The natural explanation of "successful" water dowsing is that in many areas underground water is so prevalent close to the land surface that it would be hard to drill a well and not find water. In a region of adequate rainfall and favorable geology, it is difficult not to drill and find water!

Some water exists under the Earth's surface almost everywhere. This explains why many dowsers appear to be successful. To locate groundwater accurately, however, as to depth, quantity, and quality, several techniques must be used. Hydrologic, geologic, and geophysical knowledge is needed to determine the depths and extent of the different water-bearing strata and the quantity and quality of water found in each. The area must be thoroughly tested and studied to determine these facts.


Sorry still no CONVINCING video proving dowsing working in real time videos with no editing breaks.
Click to expand...

If you listen you hear them admit to having tried satellite photos, ground radar and nded up finding it with the dowser.

It keeps being brought up that if you ig deep enough you'l eventually hit water anywhere and that is just not true. I worked in the oil field and we drilled more wells over a mile deep that didn't hit water than did. Besides, these dowsers are not looking just for water, but the shallowest and or largest source of water.

I'm a common-sense type guy and of course common sense says its BS, but then my common sense also tells me if there were not some evidence that dowsing did work, it would not be questioned any longer. So I went to YouTube and found many videos that seemingly shows proof dowsing works.
 
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Detector said:
If you listen you hear them admit to having tried satellite photos, ground radar and nded up finding it with the dowser.

It keeps being brought up that if you ig deep enough you'l eventually hit water anywhere and that is just not true. I worked in the oil field and we drilled more wells over a mile deep that didn't hit water than did. Besides, these dowsers are not looking just for water, but the shallowest and or largest source of water.

I'm a common-sense type guy and of course common sense says its BS, but then my common sense also tells me if there were not some evidence that dowsing did work, it would not be questioned any longer. So I went to YouTube and found many videos that seemingly shows proof dowsing works.
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I listened to it again. the guy in the hat simply said we even brought in a water witch and laughed. the tv reporter said the dowser worked wonders, and the dowser said when i reached this spot this will be my biggest find ever.

What a tv reporter or dowser says is not evidence of any sort in my book. Maybe if the guy in the hat had said, the dowser positively found the spot where we drilled and found water. But he did not.

and yes if you search youtube for water dowsing, you find lots of videos.
But they USGS said their is virtually water everywhere underground so how can they miss when using dowsing rods or twigs to fake it.

My original post refers to dowsing for silver coins or gold coins. Not so easy to fake that. So where are those dowsing for silver and gold coins videos?

i found one and it was so fake it was not even funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7gL6DSFj9c
 
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Detector said:
.... and nded up finding it with the dowser....
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Detector, let's just grant that dowsing succeeded where other methods failed. And that it wasn't random eventual dumb luck. In other words, let's just grant that "dowsing works".

Ok, then : Can we repeat this under double-blind testing ? Seems that we SHOULD be able to. Eh ? After all, if it works, THEN IT "WORKS". Hence I am totally game to see it tested in a double-blind test. If it "works", then there should be nothing to lose. Eh ?
 
maxxkatt said:
.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7gL6DSFj9c
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couple of observations on this video :

The guy is looking for ring. Right ? Then notice that at : 6:39 & 7:20 he passed random persons on the hiking trail. Right ? Notice the rods did not turn towards those people. Are we to assume that none of them were wearing any rings ? :?:

Next: Freeze it at 8:16 to 8:17 . You will see the obvious tilt of the right hand has caused it to turn. The ideomotor effect.

However, to be fair to dowsers, they will not deny the tilting of the rods. But will probably say that it's all a part of the "body's tuning to radio compass waves" blah blah

Eg.: Like birds flying south for the winter : Sure, the bird physically turns and flaps his wings (does physical motions) that end up making the bird fly south. But the BIGGER QUESTION is : How did the bird know to flap his wings and physically turn the southward direction ?

It's like a compass in his brain, etc.... SO TOO is the dowser .... yes.... tilting the rods. But with some sort of 6th sense to know WHERE to tilt it at.

If so, then I say : GREAT ! Let's see this "knowledge of where to tilt" with a double-blind test.
 
I'm not saying one belief over the other but that there are many things man does not understand and can't explain that happens anyway. Could this be one?

You guys simple stated there was no proof and I was simplely showing there is for those with an open mind. Yes, me finding that coin you can come up with many explainations as to how it worked. Basically the only real explination you can give is luck. OK, but had I not been trying dowsing in the first place I never would have been out there to luck on to the coin. So, one could make the argument I found it by dowing.

The concept of man possing the ability to sense changes in the earth's sources has been presented as a logical explaintion as to why it does seem to work in some cases and is well dicumented in videos. The just digging a hole until you hit water doesn't work. That is not what they do, they find the best sources. We can't explain how birds have the ability to follow leigh lines in the earth and have nothing but the idea they can and believe it. Why not people?

I just see some of you so bent on proving it is impossible to look beyond the possible as we understand it. It is called an open mind. If not for it we'd still be afraid to sail of the edge of the earth.

What still bothers me is that the belief that dowsing works still exists after all these attempts to explain it away. Like Bigfoot. The idea that such a creature could exist and stay hidden seems impossible and the sightings have tried to be explained away with logic, yet, the belief still exists. Why? because there are those who have whitnessed it and refuse to think it is just a hoax. I believe dowsing has survived for the same reasons. No matter how many explanation people come up with it just doesn't saticfy those who have whitneseed it work.
 
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