Just thinking out loud about VDI resolution

Why do you think simultaneous multi frequency makes a VDI more reliable than running a single frequency? So if I run the equinox in a single frequency the VDI will be sloppy compared to running it in simultaneous multi frequencies? I'm thinking that's not the case, simultaneous multi frequency has little to do with VDI readout vs running a single frequency.. VDI readout is more about how the machine processed that info,and not how many frequencies hit the target

Virtually all simultaneous multi frequency technologies from the 1990s to now have been proven to work better than single frequency VLFs at salt water beaches.

FBS/FBS2 has been proven to work extremely well on higher conductors in mild to moderately iron mineralized ground also, even on deep high conductors. However, all of the previous SMF tech has suffered from less accuracy on deeper non-ferrous lower to mid conductors, very small sub gram targets and ground balance issues in moderate to high iron mineralization along with being extremely slow on target recovery speed. Many single frequency and selectable single frequency detectors perform just as well in mild to moderate iron mineralization or better especially on non-ferrous low conductors, very small targets and some have extremely fast recovery speed in comparison.

Then Minelab came out with Multi IQ. Multi IQ on the Equinox compared to the Equinox selectable single frequencies does offer a big advantage in target ID accuracy and depth on the full range of non-ferrous target conductivity in all ground conditions except for the absolute worst where a pulse induction detector is the only choice. It is also excellent on sub gram non-ferrous targets of any conductivity. Multi IQ on the Equinox also offers much better target recovery speed than any SMF detector produced until Deus 2.

I have posted this explanation of what Multi IQ does in a very simple way as explained by Minelab's lead physicist for Multi IQ several times. Some here simply cannot or do not want to believe these words:

Simultaneous Multi-Frequency In-phase and Quadrature Synchronous Demodulation.

“For each frequency the detector transmits and receives there are two signals which can be extracted which we refer to as I and Q. The Q signal is most sensitive to targets, while the I signal is most sensitive to iron content. Traditional single-frequency metal detectors use the Q signal to detect targets, and then use the ratio of the I and Q signals to assess the characteristics of the target and assign a target ID. The problem with this approach is that the I signal is sensitive to the iron content of the soil. The target ID is always perturbed by the response from the soil, and as the signal from the target gets weaker, this perturbation becomes substantial. With some simplification here for brevity, if a detector transmits and receives on more than one frequency, it can ignore the soil sensitive I signals, and instead look at the multiple Q signals it receives in order to determine a target ID. That way, even for weak targets or highly mineralized soils, the target ID is far less perturbed by the response from the soil. This leads to very precise target IDs, both in mineralized soils and for targets at depth.”



After using the Equinox regularly in really bad iron mineralization since it was first released along with using it in milder ground and at saltwater beaches, I can only support what Dr. Warlich wrote. In the ground I detect in, using the Equinox in single frequency makes the Equinox only average at best and turns it into an X-Terra 705 but with more frequency choices, no coil swaps needed and faster recovery speed. Target ID accuracy suffers big time with different target IDs in each frequency along with severe instability and up-averaging on deeper targets.

Using the Equinox in Multi in 50 tones is the best way to experience how accurate it is as far as numerical target IDs. Using it in Multi in 5 tones makes the numerical target IDs a little less accurate but in either mode, if the target is a non-ferrous low, medium or high conductor, the audio and numbers will reflect the target's conductivity down to the depth of detection if the Equinox is using the multi setting.

If you read the quote above, it is easy to understand that ferrous targets are the Achilles heel of the Equinox which is why Minelab updated the iron bias settings for multi frequency use twice on the Equinox.

Two other factors are EMI and surface targets.

All SMF tech detectors can suffer from susceptibility to EMI. The Equinox is no exception. Its Noise Cancel feature is really a noise reduction feature. If EMI is present and if an Equinox is running in Multi with its sensitivity too high for the EMI conditions, the EMI will produce actual tones and target IDs which can effect actual target ID accuracy.

Also, the Equinox in Multi or selectable single frequency is a very high gain detector using a DD coil. Targets that are on or near the surface will be detected in all of their glory including changes in surface height, fluting on coins, threading on screws, bolts and aluminum screw caps, crimping on crown bottle caps and the different alloys within metals. A variety of target Ids can result between the center of the coil and its edges. When I am air testing, in a tot lot or just cherry picking shallow targets, I keep the coil well off the ground, lower the sensitivity and use a smaller coil like the 10X5" Coiltek. Target IDs are much more accurate this way.
 
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(emphasis added by me)

That's simply not true.

Here's a two part video of a guy air testing common metal detecting finds with his Simplex. Objects that don't bounce between two or more numbers are the exception. Plus, as with every detector, different examples of the same object, including coins, hit different VDI from each other.

Lower conductors/trash/jewelry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0TaLagGlHg
Higher conductors/coins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXzong68NIc

(In the description there are links to different objects.)

Here's a completely random video I found of a guy doing a typical yard hunt with his Simplex. I just clicked on one of the first videos that came up in the search:

https://youtu.be/B0ZRc6SQSbI?t=24

Wheat pennies and clad coins jumping 4 to 8 numbers. I slowed down the video on his first and second targets.

First target, with each tight swing: 16,84,65,83,78,85,85,77,90,80,75,89, etc... It was a 2-3 inch clad dime.

Second target:
76,77,74,74,81,77,82, etc....

I have an AT Pro (99 scale VDI) and the VDI is jumpy. I've done plenty of back to back tests on targets pre dig with the Equinox. The AT Pro bounces just as much as the Simplex and more than the Equinox on the same targets. The At Pro gets me to dig more, which can be a good thing sometimes. It has other great features. It's rugged, waterproof, very descriptive audio, and great for when I'm up for digging pretty much anything.

Also, when you're facing fairly clean dirt, being able to swing a dozen times over each promising signal is reasonable. Either to allow the detector to dial in a VDI or just doing it mentally.

What's more important when there's three or four non-iron signals for every swing is what you hear on the first pass or two. Again, in my own testing on targets pre-dig, the Equinox more often finds something close to the true reading on the first pass or two, and has more ways to relay that over audio.

On that same note, while FBS-based Explorer II isn't my main machine, I also disagree that the CO number gets jumpy at depth. If anything, the strong point of FBS is that it hits deep high conductors with a very high, stable CO. When that happens, it's a coin.

So, don't say these 100 scale machines don't have jumpy VDI. You've repeatedly said that 'people don't care about VDI' and something along the lines of VDI being nearly useless. No, people care about VDI, it is arguably better than it's ever been, it is extremely useful, and we'd all like for it to be as good as the limitations of the underlying science allows.

I would suggest you go back and reread my posts. You'll find I said VDI accuracy down to 6" but beyond that most are jumpy. If your detector has a jumpy VDI on a dime at 2"-3", you've either got some seriously bad ground, trash with the target, or a messed up detector. At 2"-3" any detector sound has a solid VDI. I did say the E-Trac CO was better down to around 8" and then gets less reliable, so using the FE helps tell the rusted iron from a possible coin at that depth.

You might also note I mentioned I hunt mostly tot lots, so these VDI signals are far more stable than in dirsty goeund.
 
From the Minelab site.



It also has been shown to be a "time-domain" technology which is why a slow-moving coil is needed. With the newer faster processors, even time domain can be processed at a greater speed, meaning a slow swing is not as necessary.

How many frequencies are being transmitted doesn't mean much. What matters is how many of those frequencies are being processed (and how they're being processed).
 
................the Equinox in Multi or selectable single frequency is a very high gain detector using a DD coil. Targets that are on or near the surface will be detected in all of their glory including changes in surface height, fluting on coins, threading on screws, bolts and aluminum screw caps, crimping on crown bottle caps and the different alloys within metals. A variety of target Ids can result between the center of the coil and its edges....................

Excellent post, and I really like that particular point. I don't have a problem with a VDI bouncing in response to nuances of the object.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but I've never seen anybody make note of the fact that nothing on the Equinox claims it to be a coin and jewelry detector. There's no coin mode, there's no coin, jewelry or relic icon lighting up to signal a coin or a ring. Those words never appear on or in the detector. We're given features and settings for detecting different types of metal in different types of soil/sand. We have to figure out what it's telling us to find coins and jewelry. I'm not expecting a solid, steady VDI number as as substitute for a flashing coin icon to tell me something is a silver dime.
 
I'll jump in for a bit. I've used my obsolete AT Pro for five years. The VDI for the type of coin hunting I do... private yards, not too trashy, and curb strips. not too trashy, in moderately mineralized soil (Ground Balance around 80-85) is rock solid. Shallow nickels are 52-53, deeper Buffs or Vs are 50-52, deeper Indian Head cents are low 70's. Shallow Zincolns are always 75-76. Wheat Cents are 78-79, Copper Memorials are 80-82. Clad Dimes shallow are 81. Clad Quarters are 86. And of course silvers can range from 78-96 depending on wear and size.

I've seen very consistent results over these five years, the VDI numbers give really good info, and I am rarely surprised, unless it is a mixed coin spill or silver next to a nail. My Nox 800 detecting buddies often call me over to check their signal and give my opinion as to what type of target they are finding. When detecting, I listen to TONE first, and only if needed do I check the VDI to eliminate shallow zincolns. Fortunately Garrett put the "tone break" between mid tones and high tones right in the low 70's range, so usually a zincoln doesn't give a crisp high tone. I am primarily a silver coin hunter, so any high tone gets my attention, with the VDI giving me additional information.
 
Those who know me know I like to back up my claims with videos. So here you go. First is my $250 detector giving a solid VDI of 04 meaning iron. Hairpin, paperclip, wire. Iron and nothing else.



Second is my $250 detector showing a VDI of 18-21 which means a piece of foil. The pictures below are each target just as shown with my VDI. Works exactly the same in the dirt. So yes, a high-resolution VDI does make a difference.



Well, my pictures are failing to upload, but one is a picture of a piece of foil, the other a picture of a piece of wire like a paperclip opened.

I used the AT Pro for many years. If you get a jumpy VDI on a dime at 2-3" you've either got something else in the same areA, your AT Pro is not set up right, or it is trashed.
 
How many frequencies are being transmitted doesn't mean much. What matters is how many of those frequencies are being processed (and how they're being processed).

Hence the reason the E-Trac is stated as a "time-domain" detector. That means it processes the frequencies like a police scanner. only very fast. The software scans the returned frequencies and analyzes the results from each to put out the two VDIs based on the analyzed return of the results of the 28 frequencies.
 
It doesn't process 28freqs! It uses alternate bursts of 1 cycle of 3.125kHz then 8 cycles of 25kHz



Hence the reason the E-Trac is stated as a "time-domain" detector. That means it processes the frequencies like a police scanner. only very fast. The software scans the returned frequencies and analyzes the results from each to put out the two VDIs based on the analyzed return of the results of the 28 frequencies.
 
It doesn't process 28freqs! It uses alternate bursts of 1 cycle of 3.125kHz then 8 cycles of 25kHz

This part has been a part of the debate for years. No one knows for sure. What we do know is that it transmits 28 frequencies, be it major of harmonics, and then each returned frequency is analyzed for a response which it uses to give it a ferrous & a conductive ID based on the strongest frequencies response. The 28 frequencies are determined by the noise cancel.

We can debate how the E-Trac works, but the undeniable fact is it works, and it works very well, but is a slow processor compared to the new machines today. For all we know MIQ is little more than a much faster processed FBS2. SMF could simply be the same process only instead of the time domain it uses the frequency domain. The frequencies are transmitted & processed simultainously. That is why it only uses 5 and not 28.

Until they release this information all we can do is speculate & guess.
 
This part has been a part of the debate for years. No one knows for sure. What we do know is that it transmits 28 frequencies, be it major of harmonics, and then each returned frequency is analyzed for a response which it uses to give it a ferrous & a conductive ID based on the strongest frequencies response. The 28 frequencies are determined by the noise cancel.

We can debate how the E-Trac works, but the undeniable fact is it works, and it works very well, but is a slow processor compared to the new machines today. For all we know MIQ is little more than a much faster processed FBS2. SMF could simply be the same process only instead of the time domain it uses the frequency domain. The frequencies are transmitted & processed simultainously. That is why it only uses 5 and not 28.

Until they release this information all we can do is speculate & guess.

I highly, highly doubt that, given the differences in FBS/FBS2 and MIQ characteristics.
 
There is no debate to be had, top detector engineers have already proven it only processes the 2 freqs, not 28, again this is old news.


This part has been a part of the debate for years. No one knows for sure. What we do know is that it transmits 28 frequencies, be it major of harmonics, and then each returned frequency is analyzed for a response which it uses to give it a ferrous & a conductive ID based on the strongest frequencies response. The 28 frequencies are determined by the noise cancel.

We can debate how the E-Trac works, but the undeniable fact is it works, and it works very well, but is a slow processor compared to the new machines today. For all we know MIQ is little more than a much faster processed FBS2. SMF could simply be the same process only instead of the time domain it uses the frequency domain. The frequencies are transmitted & processed simultainously. That is why it only uses 5 and not 28.

Until they release this information all we can do is speculate & guess.
 
There is no debate to be had, top detector engineers have already proven it only processes the 2 freqs, not 28, again this is old news.

And your proof? I've been in metal detecting for well over 40 years and I must have been this earth-shattering revelation?

From Minelab
FBS simultaneously transmits and analyses a full band of multiple frequencies from 1.5 kHz to 100 kHz and is therefore sensitive to both very small and large deep targets at the same time.

We're moving away from the original topic here. VDI resolution has little to do with how many frequencies the FBS does, or doesn't use.
 
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What has 40yrs detecting got to do with the subject?

Go and look up Carl Moreland or research on the Geotech forum if you need proof, him and other engineers have already proven the freqs processed.

And your proof? I've been in metal detecting for well over 40 years and I must have been this earth-shattering revelation?

From Minelab

We're moving away from the original topic here. VDI resolution has little to do with how many frequencies the FBS does, or doesn't use.
 
What has 40yrs detecting got to do with the subject?

Go and look up Carl Moreland or research on the Geotech forum if you need proof, him and other engineers have already proven the freqs processed.

Because I've been through this discussion many times, many years ago, and I know where your idea of 2 frequencies comes from. How about we move on to the original topic?

How about those who claim no stability in the VDI explain my two videos showing a $250 detector with rock-solid VDIs? And when it is a rock-solid 18-21 it will be a piece of foil 90% of the time. If it is a rock-solid 04 it will be a piece of iron 90% of the time.
 
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It's easily explained, a detector will give accurate ID to a certain depth, then it's a guessing game
Your targets are on the surface, the deeper you go the less accurate and more jumpy the ID will become.
My daughter has an even cheaper detector that will perform the same task on the surface-2"-3" as your Simplex

Because I've been through this discussion many times, many years ago. How about we move on to the original topic?

How about those who claim no stability in the VDI explain my two videos showing a $250 detector with rock-solid VDIs? And when it is a rock-solid 18-21 it will be a piece of foil 90% of the time. If it is a rock-solid 04 it will be a piece of iron 90% of the time.
 
It's easily explained, a detector will give accurate ID to a certain depth, then it's a guessing game
Your targets are on the surface, the deeper you go the less accurate and more jumpy the ID will become.
My daughter has an even cheaper detector that will perform the same task on the surface-2"-3" as your Simplex

Exactly, so why did I see people saying they get a "jumpy VDI on a dime at 2"-3""? I said if their AT pro gets a jumpy VDI on a dime at 2"-3" then they've either got another target nearby, their AT Pro is not set up properly, or it is messed up. My point is the value of a higher resolution VDI.

People have been told for some time now that the VDI is useless to a point they believe it. Yes, at depth is becomes less reliable, but Minelab addressed this issue with the E-Tracs double VDI (FE & CO) and 1500 VDI segments.
 
It could also mean the coin sitting at an angle, the ground highly mineralised etc
On the silver I hunt, my Etrac lost ferrous/non ferrous accuracy after 6"-7" in my soil, the Nox does much better probably because it runs a higher frequency.
 
It could also mean the coin sitting at an angle, the ground highly mineralised etc
On the silver I hunt, my Etrac lost ferrous/non ferrous accuracy after 6"-7" in my soil, the Nox does much better probably because it runs a higher frequency.

I hope so. I've got an Equinox 800 coming. I had several before but I never really gave them a chance. I took them to our city park, many times, and found nothing more than a few old coins that had been masked. Nothing below 7"-8". The coins in this park, that are left, are extremely deep or masked by 130+ years of junk. We always seem to be able to pull some keepers with our E-Tracs, but nothing else has done the job. Deus was about like the 800.

I just was stunned that someone would say their AT Pro had a jumpy VDI on a dime at 2"-3". That just ain't right. I've had many AT Pros and I know better. They are one of my favorite mid-range detectors.

These videos are just to show that having more VDI segments doesn't equal a jumpy VDI, but a more solid and accurate VDI.
 
It would probably be soil/emi/ trash depending on wither you get the depth or ID you require, i know i don't get all my desirable targets because at a certain depth the detector can't tell the difference between the ground and target, so it either doesn't register or it registers as iron.
So there is occasions when i will dig a small deep/mostly iron sounding tone and get a pleasant surprise.
 
I read through most of this thread.
Help may be on the way. All I will say.

Next,
Ever listen to an Equinox when sweeping targets?
How does it respond over target tonally?
And listen to DFX sweeping targets?
Fisher F75 series acts more like DFX not Equinox series.

The Equinox is giving more real time of what coil is seeing vs DFX.

Coil is passed over target conductivity level varies as coil is swept.

DFX is more flat looking ID wise and tonal sounding vs Equinox when targets are swept.

Looking at Deus 2, chances are I think it won’t be ( in its current form) the super desirable USA coin detector vs what we could see in the future. This doesn’t imply Deus 2 won’t find coins either. And update though could help tilt scales somewhat. Personally I don’t know if this is possible or if it is what else is compromised overall. This what I am referring to will become more apparent eventually. When actual more Usa detectorist get Deus 2 and one more thing happens.
 
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