When is it better to ask forgiveness instead of permission?

Tom_in_CA said:

Now *would* that farmer ever do that ? Of course not ! Would the farmer care less ? Of course not ! But *could* the farmer do it ? Yes.

Click to expand...

OK, I'll ask you the same question I asked Xxray (which for some reason or another, he defines as Rhetorical): "Is there nothing that you would not keep?"
You guys keep talking about a ring. What if you find something much more valuable? What if you find something that may have great sentimental value to the land owner (I use the words "may have" because...well...since you're trespassing on private property, you haven't actually spoken to the landowner, so you can't be 100% sure). In other words, at what "level" would you find yourself in a moral conundrum?

Tom_in_CA said:

So again : The difference is technical vs realistic.

Click to expand...

Then let' be realistic, shall we. When is the last time you have ever just stopped at some random, wide open field out in the middle of nowhere and said to yourself: "Gee, that looks like a nice place to spend my time detecting"? No one does that. If you're going to detect a given location, it's because you either know the history of the area, or have looked at historic maps and records, or maybe see an old foundation or an old log/stone cabin. In other words, you have justifiable reasons to feel that there's actually a pretty good chance that you're going to find something. No one just walks out in a random field and starts detecting. Well, in order to keep this realistic I guess, maybe I should say that it would be very unusual, and likely a fruitless adventure, for someone to just stop at some unknown (to them), random, wide open field in the middle of no where and start metal detecting.

So stop acting like you're detecting in a place the "no one cares about", and that you can keep anything you find, since it otherwise would have just remain buried anyway. Be real. Admit that you know something about the area you're going to detect and therefore know, or should know, that it's also private property...and further admit that you just don't care.

Isn't that more realistic?

FliesOnly said:

Go do the same thing right there in their front yard and see if there's any price to pay.

Click to expand...

I never said it was fine to detect obvious private property without permission, in fact I have said the exact opposite right here in this very thread - Stop being a repetitive sensationalist

FliesOnly said:

Cuz they got caught!!! You're almost making it sound like you feel that breaking the law is fine, just as long as you don't get caught. I hope that's not what you're trying to say.

Click to expand...

Thats exactly your logic when you go over the speed limit, but oh yeah thats right, it doesn't relate to metal detecting so you don't want to talk about that because that exposes you as a you know what.
I wouldn't worry about "getting caught" in a field, in fact I have been more than once.

FliesOnly said:

OK, I'll ask you the same question I asked Xxray (which for some reason or another, he defines as Rhetorical): "Is there nothing that you would not keep?"

Click to expand...

Ok rhetorical may not be exactly what I have in mind, lets say "speculative question". I could say I'd keep it, I could say I'd make a mad effort to find the owner and give it to him or her, I could say I'd donate it to charity, fact is I don't know what I'd do, thats why I don't like getting too far into what-ifs.
You could say "I would most certainly return it, 100% on my honor !" and I could reply "Yeah right, you know you would keep it", and neither one of us could be proven to be correct or wrong - So thats the reason.

Having said that, I have returned at least 3 rings that I can think of where the owner could be id'ed, along with a few cell phones. I also found nice civil war relics and a near mint coin from 1832 that I donated to a local historical museum. So that right there tells me that its possible, but no way to tell for sure until it happens.

FliesOnly said:

.... "Is there nothing that you would not keep?"
...

Click to expand...

F/O, yes, like everyone here, when I detect in the "middle of nowhere", it's because some research led me to the zone. Like any md'r : I'm researching for where yesteryear defunct picnic spot was . Or cellar hole. Or stage stop. Or contact era Indian rancheria. Or Gold rush tent city site, etc....

And to answer your question about a potential jar of coins, or someone's stashed family heirloom : I have never found any such item (never found a cache so far). I, like everyone else here, am looking for fumble fingers coins and relics. Stuff that is not "family heirlooms" or "deliberately hidden" (as in ... modern times).

So I've never encountered the moral quandary that you describe. Because, sure, the moment a situation like that happens, then yes: It's like "taking the ring off farmer Bob's nightstand". Versus an item that no one knew existed.

And BTW , this answer ^^ is not addressing the technical issue. Since : whether or not the item was "known" or not, is irrelevant. It's only addressing the issue of realistic vs technical.

Welp..detected the field. Didn't find much. Also didn't have any problems. Will probably go back before ground freezes.

Xxray said:

Ok rhetorical may not be exactly what I have in mind, lets say "speculative question". I could say I'd keep it, I could say I'd make a mad effort to find the owner and give it to him or her, I could say I'd donate it to charity, fact is I don't know what I'd do, thats why I don't like getting too far into what-ifs.

Click to expand...

Fair enough

Xxray said:

You could say "I would most certainly return it, 100% on my honor !" and I could reply "Yeah right, you know you would keep it", and neither one of us could be proven to be correct or wrong - So thats the reason.

Click to expand...

Weeeeeeeelllll...excpept for the fact that I wouldn't have detected on private property without permission to begin with.

Xxray said:

Having said that, I have returned at least 3 rings that I can think of where the owner could be id'ed, along with a few cell phones. I also found nice civil war relics and a near mint coin from 1832 that I donated to a local historical museum. So that right there tells me that its possible, but no way to tell for sure until it happens.

Click to expand...

Good to know.

First of all, I'll repeat what I've said on various md forums for years: thank you to Ca Tom for no doubt discouraging many newbies from going to city hall to get their "princely permissions" to detect public property. The constant point he makes about no one cares until you asked is a valid one. Asking permission to metal detect on non-posted and unfenced property where you are by definition (as a taxpayer) part owner is an invitation for some bureaucrat who would have otherwise never given it a thought to say I don't think we want people doing that.

Where Tom and I differ involves detecting on private property without permission. I have two pieces of advice about that: 1. Don't do it. 2. If you choose to ignore #1, have the common sense not to blab about it on a public forum.

Marcomo : Thanx for the kind words.

marcomo said:

... Where Tom and I differ involves ....

Click to expand...

Yes, I confess I've been guilty of too much "locker room talk".

Only you can answer that. You’re the one who will live with your conscience.

So after exhaustive research you find a piece of property that is corporate owned and hidden behind a never ending cloak of secrecy that the best detective couldnt solve. Finding the NAME of the corporate entity is easy even finding a name isnt that hard but finding a way to contact that person is sometimes impossible. They don't WANT you to contact them. Every avenue you try leads to a dead end. No fences no crops no cattle etc just land that may or may not be a part of a farming operation sometimes they buy a huge parcel to get the cropland and the rest is just there. Reality is noone cares that you are on that type of land swinging a metal detector. My opinion is if it's fenced then someone DOES care. If there are signs someone DOES care. If it is maked in any way they DO care and should be respected. If there is no attempt made and you have done all you can to try and find a contact then I would take that as they DON'T care . Then it's a personal decision . There is a certain area that I have been researching for a few months that I know for a fact is being detected I also know that the people doing the detecting claim to have permission and noone within the organization has given permission and they also don't care. So not saying they didnt get someone to say its ok. How would you even know if the person you are asking even has the authority to grant you permission or would you even care? If someone drove up to my house and asked the guy mowing my yard if they could detect it and the yard guy says its ok how would they know he doesnt have the authority? Reality is most of the time this type of land noone cares and if they do you'll find out.

Magicmantx said:

..... Reality is noone cares that you are on that type of land swinging a metal detector. ....

Click to expand...

Reminds me of a post I read years ago, where someone posted multiple pictures of a cellar hole. It was apparently in some vacant woods behind a residential edge-of-town area. Where neighbors walk their dogs, people hike trails, etc.... And this person realized that a depression in the ground was a cellar hole. So they went 360* around it, taking pictures, and posting the pix on an md'ing forum.

And the focus of the question was stuff like : "How do I get permission to detect this?" and "how do I find out who owns this land" . Ie.: Apparently they'd hit dead-ends with nameless faceless corps, or that it simply wasn't on the assessor's parcel map, or .... some such road blocks.

And as I read this person's quandary, It struck me : Why is it that someone is fine & dandy with walking this hike path every day. And can be standing *right there* to take pictures , 360* around it. Yet ... wonders if they can detect it ? I mean, if they thought they were "trespassing" or doing something wrong, then .... how the heck are they standing there, to take those pictures, IN THE FIRST PLACE ?

I guess it's because we somehow think that md'd is reviled, frowned upon, disliked, harmful, dangerous, or whatever. Why do we md'rs think that way ? I happen to think it's harmless, wise, liked, benign, etc... And as far as passer-bys notions : It's likewise : People ask "what's the best thing you've ever found" and "how deep does it go", etc.... So : Why this notion that everyone hates us ?

Tom_in_CA said:

Reminds me of a post I read years ago, where someone posted multiple pictures of a cellar hole. It was apparently in some vacant woods behind a residential edge-of-town area. Where neighbors walk their dogs, people hike trails, etc.... And this person realized that a depression in the ground was a cellar hole. So they went 360* around it, taking pictures, and posting the pix on an md'ing forum.

And the focus of the question was stuff like : "How do I get permission to detect this?" and "how do I find out who owns this land" . Ie.: Apparently they'd hit dead-ends with nameless faceless corps, or that it simply wasn't on the assessor's parcel map, or .... some such road blocks.

And as I read this person's quandary, It struck me : Why is it that someone is fine & dandy with walking this hike path every day. And can be standing *right there* to take pictures , 360* around it. Yet ... wonders if they can detect it ? I mean, if they thought they were "trespassing" or doing something wrong, then .... how the heck are they standing there, to take those pictures, IN THE FIRST PLACE ?

I guess it's because we somehow think that md'd is reviled, frowned upon, disliked, harmful, dangerous, or whatever. Why do we md'rs think that way ? I happen to think it's harmless, wise, liked, benign, etc... And as far as passer-bys notions : It's likewise : People ask "what's the best thing you've ever found" and "how deep does it go", etc.... So : Why this notion that everyone hates us ?

Click to expand...

Not one time have I ever had a negative encounter. Most times I do get curiosity questions like finding anything? Or the occasional we see people detecting here all the time. I did have one person ask who gave me permission to be on the property I was on. I provided the name and they smiled and said good luck and moved on.

The advocation of trespassing on privately owned property should result in a FMDF temporary ban on the first offense and a permaban on the second offense.

When you go on someones land (no matter who owns it) without permission ... you are trespassing.
Would you want someone metal detecting in your yard without asking first?
If you can not get permission then dont do it.
This should not even be a question among honest and moral people.
The possibility of finding something valuable is what makes us want to metal detect.
That valuable item is not yours and you have no right to just go and take it without permission.

Public parks, city property, and beaches are different.
They are in Public trust and intended for the use by the public at large.
Technically you are part owner of that property.
If your persuite of happyness is recovering items from those places there is nothing wrong with that.
The items you are recovering are lost items and it is really cool if you can track down and return any valuable item.
(the fun is in the finding)
I have spent time and resources returning school class rings because it is possible to do ... and it is the right thing to do.
A persons integrity is determined by what he does when no one is watching.

Tom_in_CA said:

Points Duly noted. Because, sure, in *our* case, we're not doing something as innocuous as (gasp) stepping off the sidewalk, or spitting. We are doing something much more evil : Metal detecting. Point duly noted.

And let's not stop there. Because what you are saying is not restricted to just the question of the post here. It's also equally true of public land too. It's laws/rules known as prohibitions on "harvest" and "remove". Aka take and steal. Everything you've said (which I do not dispute) equally applies to every single beach, forest, park, etc....

If you walk into any city hall, anywhere, and ask : "Hi, can I 'dig' , 'take' and 'remove' things from the park (or beach, or forest, etc...) for my own personal profit ?", they will tell you "no". Right ? But you tell me honestly : Did they care one bit that you removed a merc. dime from the park or beach ? Of course not. Yet technically ... you are in violation.

Let's all just give up this evil hobby

Click to expand...

Let's say you get a small family farm from your grandfather ... years pass ... the farm is now just a small field with the remains of broken down structures. Your aunt tells you that grandpa burried a metal box near the house that was never found. You decide to buy a detector and go looking for it. You dont find it ... why? ... it was recovered years ago ... another metal detector hobbyist who had no permission to be on your land.
He has the valuables and all the family memorabilia you are entitled to.
How do you feel toward that fella ... is he a thief?

Willee said:

Let's say you get a small family farm from your grandfather ... years pass ... the farm is now just a small field with the remains of broken down structures. Your aunt tells you that grandpa burried a metal box near the house that was never found. You decide to buy a detector and go looking for it. You dont find it ... why? ... it was recovered years ago ... another metal detector hobbyist who had no permission to be on your land.
He has the valuables and all the family memorabilia you are entitled to.
How do you feel toward that fella ... is he a thief?

Click to expand...

You’re banging your head against a wall.

He’s been allowed to rationalize, and advocate, criminal behavior for so long on this forum, without repercussions, that he’s going to continue to do so.

Unfortunately, he’s going to have an effect on the easily influenced among our community and that will result in a variety of predictable negative consequences for them. Physical confrontations, trespassing charges, criminal charges for theft, etc.

I have him on ignore, so as to not have to see his inane blather.

I'd sure look into what the penalty might be if an owner wanted to make an issue of it before i decided. I love my finds but not enough to risk getting fined or arrested to add a few more.

Willee said:

.....
How do you feel toward that fella ... is he a thief?

Click to expand...

Willee, points duly noted. But let's just cut to the chase & know that no one should be going on to private land, in the first place. I think there's a mental connotation of "fence hopping" that has crept into this thread. But go back to the ORIGINAL post #1, by Smooth23, from October. Notice it's painting a much more benign picture. Not the picture you're painting in post #95.

But sure, let's just grant that nothing is benign anywhere. And you and I will never "step off the sidewalk". The world would be a better place if everyone was this strict. Granted. Ok ?

But I want to comment on the moral dilemma you've painted , about the family heirloom : Are you aware that the exact same "trot out the toddler" type -story can be painted for public land too ? Easy, here's how :

1) Your wife is at the park at 3pm with your young kid, pushing your child on the swing set.

2) She sees her wedding ring fly off, and land off-yonder in the sandy surface.

3) She rushes over, to try to find her ring. Only to discover that ...... no matter how much she sifts the sand with her fingers, it's obscured from view.

4) BUT NOT TO WORRY, because her husband (you) is a metal detector enthusiast. So she calls you to tell you that you're going to need to find her ring in the park.

5) You tell her : "As soon as I get off work at 5pm, I'll go there and find it.

6) At 5pm you & your wife arrive back at the park. You begin hunting the exact spot she's directed you to. But no matter how hard you try, you can NOT find her ring !

7) After 10 minutes of thoroughly scrubbing the little tight spot, an old man has been watching you from the park bench the entire time. He comes over and talks to you :

8) He says : "you know it's odd that you are spending all this time , stuck in this little isolated zone. Because just 30 minutes ago, some other guy with a detector was here. And when he got to this exact spot, all of the sudden he let out a shriek of joy. And I saw him intently studying an object in his hand. And then he left the park. And then only 15 minutes later, you showed up and walked to this exact spot"

9) You would immediately put 2+2 together, and realize that someone else found your wife's ring .

So let's pose your same great question to the above thought experiment : Regarding that other md'r: Is he a thief ?

Tom_in_CA said:

So let's pose your same great question to the above thought experiment : Regarding that other md'r: Is he a thief ?

Click to expand...

I don't know how the Courts would treat the "finder" (i.e. not sure he/she would be classified as a "thief), but generally speaking, lost items are supposed to be turned into the local law enforcement agency who has jurisdiction over the property where the item was found. As the finder, you can eventually have it "returned" to you if the owner doesn't show up (after a certain amount of time) to claim the item.

But it's certainly not a valid comparison. One behavior is illegal (trespassing and removing found items) while the other action is not illegal (detecting on public property where it's allowed). It's like you're comparing speeding on the highway with "speeding" on a racetrack.

In Michigan, if you find anything on private property, and are there without permission, the found items belong to the property owner. IF you are there with permission, they are the finder's. That is my understanding of the law as I have read it.