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Who the hell do you ask at a church?

Smooth23

Elite Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
618
Location
WI
I've got a couple churches, including one just down the road from my house.. small places, old building. Who actually has the ability to give or deny permission at a church?
 
The pastor???

I mean, if the pastor says yes, then who the heck is going to argue with the pastor? God? lol
 
I've got a couple churches, including one just down the road from my house.. small places, old building. Who actually has the ability to give or deny permission at a church?


Good question. And the same could be asked at city-level-bureaucracy too. For example : If the gardener at the city park says "go ahead", is that good enough ? Or should you assume he doesn't have ability, and seek out his boss ? So you go to the head of the park's dept. He says "go ahead" . Is that good enough, or should you go to the Mayor and city council ? Do you see how it can become never-ending ?

Same for a church : If their landscaper says : "help yourself", is that good enough ? Or if you go higher than him to a deacon . The deacon says "help yourself", is that good enough ? Or must you hear it from the pastor ? Heck, why stop at the pastor : Go up to the denominational headquarters located in another state. After all, ya-can't-be-too-safe, eh ?

At a certain point, it borders on ridiculous. For me : I do not argue with ANYONE who says "yes". Even if it's the little girl on the swing-set. Why argue with a "yes" ? :laughing:
 
.... if the pastor says yes, then who the heck is going to argue with the pastor? .....

I've always found the minister, and not looked further. Jm2c.

Ok, what about the "assistant minister" ? (if it were a larger church with more-staff like that). Must you go higher than him, to the senior minister ?

And, Oh me oh my, but .... what if it's a church that's in a larger denomination ? Such that : The headquarters are located in another state ? Such that this local minister has up-line over him, that he's accountable to. Shouldn't you therefore assume that the local guy isn't high enough, and proceed yet-higher up the chain-of-authority ? ;)
 
The pastor typically, although anyone in the power structure should be good. My most recent church permission came through a friend of a neighbor. She is on the board of trustees and called the head of the board for permission.
 
Tom,

For public land, it technically comes down to what the law says. Unfortunately, in most, (if not all) city / county bylaws, there will be a section stating it is illegal to "disturb" public land.

For private land? Well, it's like my pastor example...get permission from someone that you know no one else is going to argue the point with.
 
Good question. And the same could be asked at city-level-bureaucracy too. For example : If the gardener at the city park says "go ahead", is that good enough ? Or should you assume he doesn't have ability, and seek out his boss ? So you go to the head of the park's dept. He says "go ahead" . Is that good enough, or should you go to the Mayor and city council ? Do you see how it can become never-ending ?

Same for a church : If their landscaper says : "help yourself", is that good enough ? Or if you go higher than him to a deacon . The deacon says "help yourself", is that good enough ? Or must you hear it from the pastor ? Heck, why stop at the pastor : Go up to the denominational headquarters located in another state. After all, ya-can't-be-too-safe, eh ?

At a certain point, it borders on ridiculous. For me : I do not argue with ANYONE who says "yes". Even if it's the little girl on the swing-set. Why argue with a "yes" ? :laughing:

LOL I should rephrase my question as "Who do I go to, until No means No?
 
When I got my first detector, at age ~15 -ish in the mid 1970s, there was a Baptist church in our neighborhood, that was built in the mid 1950s. It had a spacious front lawn. And our Jr. High bus stop was there at the edge of the property, where the lawn met-the-street.

And when I got my first detector, and was thinking of where to take it, my mind flashed on to our school bus stop. And sure enough : pennies and dimes there on the grass by the street at this church. Woohoo.

As I cleaned that out, I found myself moving further and further back into the grass (there was really no clear dividing line), till I was admittedly probably on the church's grass. One day, a janitor came out. He stopped and stared at me. Came over and asked what I was doing. I gleefully showed him a few coins saying "is that ok ?" He shrugged his shoulders, said "ok", and went back inside.

So : Did that janitor have that say-so ? Or should I have kept going higher over his head ?
 
.... For public land, it technically comes down to what the law says. .....

Well, yes, my analogy had weak points (doh !). But you would be surprised how many people think they need permission , even in city parks. And then they fret-themselves-silly wondering who-it-is, at city-hall, who has that authority.

For example, you say :

....most, (if not all) city / county bylaws, there will be a section stating it is illegal to "disturb" public land....

Yes digalicious : EVERY / ALL public land has something to that effect. Aka : Alter, disturb, deface, etc....

Now personally I do not construe such things to apply to us. Since we leave no trace. Hence : We have not alterED or defacED anything, now have you ? :?: But *Could* such things be said to construe to apply to us ? SURE ! So what a lot of skittish md'rs do, is run around seeking express "yes" blessings. Since, as you say, it's governed by laws. And since, as we agree, such verbiage *could* be construed to apply (if you asked long enough and hard enough and swatted enough hornet's nests :roll:).

Therefore my analogy is still pertinent: How far up the pecking order do you need to go in city staffing ? Same for churches : How far up the pecking order do you need to go ? So there are similarities in the analogy.
 
Now personally I do not construe such things to apply to us. Since we leave no trace. Hence : We have not alterED or defacED anything, now have you ? :?:

Not until someone notices all the dead circles a few days later. It must be a dog pee spot! :D

Also, when the plug is out of the ground, have you not "altered" the ground? Just because you altered something, and then unaltered that something, doesn't mean you didn't alter it to begin with ;)
 
Ok, what about the "assistant minister" ? (if it were a larger church with more-staff like that). Must you go higher than him, to the senior minister ?

And, Oh me oh my, but .... what if it's a church that's in a larger denomination ? Such that : The headquarters are located in another state ? Such that this local minister has up-line over him, that he's accountable to. Shouldn't you therefore assume that the local guy isn't high enough, and proceed yet-higher up the chain-of-authority ? ;)

"what if it's a church that's in a larger denomination ? Such that : The headquarters are located in another state ?"

All of the churches I have done have been small quaint country churches in rural towns. I keep it simple.
 
And, Oh me oh my, but .... what if it's a church that's in a larger denomination ? Such that : The headquarters are located in another state ?

So what if the headquarters are in a different state?

What matters is who is going to see you dig, and who has the local authority to give you permission or not. Of course, that would be the pastor.
 
Not until someone notices all the dead circles a few days later. It must be a dog pee spot! :D

Also, when the plug is out of the ground, have you not "altered"?


Digalicious, excellent questions ! This has been the subject of much debate on many threads. And is (ahem ahem) a bee-in-my-bonnet. Doh ! :roll:

Sure ! I don't deny that such boiler plate verbiage *could* be construed to apply to us. Granted. So too can boiler plate verbiage about "harvest" & "remove" be said to apply as well. After all, we "remove" pennies, dimes, pulltabs, etc....

But honestly now : Verbiage about "harvest" was implemented so that no numbskull thinks he can start harvesting the sod or sand, or roses from the gardens, for commercial sale. And "remove" is so that no numb-nuts thinks he is going to take home the park benches. But *could* such things apply to individual coins and rings ? SURE ! But realistically does anyone think that way ? No !

So we're talking about "realistic" versus "technical" here. And the problem with trying to sort-it-out by having someone at city hall give you an express "yes" (permission), is that all-too-often you bump into the : "No one cared... UNTIL you asked" psychology. People attempting to overcome that troubling verbiage go asking at city halls, and fetch themselves a "no" (because someone envisions geeks with shovels). And oddly, these "no's" have often come at places that ..... quite frankly ..... were never an issue before .

In other words, you risk getting a rule invented to "address your pressing question", when in fact, no one probably ever gave 2 sh#ts about it.

Thus, no, I do not construe that language to *necessarily* apply. If someone thinks differently, they're more than welcome to come inform me. But no, the solution is not to try to preempt busy-bodies, by having some sort of permission to waive around. Because you can often end up with a "no", where no one really ever cared or gave the matter any thought. This happens all-too-often.
 
.....What matters is who is going to see you dig, and who has the local authority to give you permission or not. ....

Hhhhmmm, so what you're saying is that authority (from denominational headquarters) can be assigned to local rep's (pastor of individual church in question). I AGREE !

And furthermore : It's who's likely to see you. I AGREE !

So how about this : So too is the authority subrogated downwards to the deacon. And so too can authority be subrogated down to the gardener (typically a church member who volunteers perhaps). Presto, they too can say "yes". And they too are the ones likely to see you.
 
My guess for the right person would be the "facilities manager" or similar, or at least that is who replied my request one time. I think "groundskeeper" is basically the same thing. The church permissions I have gotten have been through email. Whoever is in charge of reading the incoming emails seems to direct it to the right person. I have had pretty good luck this way, getting more "yes" than "no" responses.

It really depends on where you live. The churches in my area (of which there are about a million) are large and hire a lot of people. If you live in a small town, there might not be an official facilities manager or groundskeeper, so YMMV.
 
Here it is 4 hours later, and I bet Tom is still pondering the nuances of permission :laughing:
 
Ok, what about the "assistant minister" ? (if it were a larger church with more-staff like that). Must you go higher than him, to the senior minister ?

And, Oh me oh my, but .... what if it's a church that's in a larger denomination ? Such that : The headquarters are located in another state ? Such that this local minister has up-line over him, that he's accountable to. Shouldn't you therefore assume that the local guy isn't high enough, and proceed yet-higher up the chain-of-authority ? ;)

With Catholic maybe the priest there or higher up?? Dunno?šŸ˜
 
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