Here's A Park I Would Pass On...

AirmetTango · Feb 8, 2021

This article popped up in my news feed today about a tragedy that I certainly never heard about before:

America's Deadliest School Massacre

The horrific events that unfolded that day are unimaginable to anyone, but especially so from the perspective of a parent. Toward the end of the article, it mentions that the school stood and continued to be used up until the 1970's before being turned into a park. It wasn't hard to find the place on Google Earth, and a little more research showed that besides the cupola, there is also a small memorial plaque which lists the names of those who died. But the plaque doesn't specifically mention that the park is where the school stood.

Anyway, it got me to thinking, if I were just passing through that town and not familiar with the local history, I may have happily detected that park. But I wouldn't dream of it now - to me, it would be as taboo as a cemetery. It's interesting how a little historical knowledge about a location can completely change your viewpoint about it.

I guess some folks could argue that the violent deaths at the school site aren't much different than, say, a civil war battlefield. But to me, it's definitely different - maybe because it's such a major, ugly event for one small town to endure, maybe because so many children were involved, or a little of both.

What do you all think? Would you hunt that site? Or let the souls rest in peace and move on to the next site? I know I would say "rest in peace, children of Bath", then move along...

kaufenanger · Feb 8, 2021

I agree I would take a solid pass on that park especially knowing such a tragedy happened there.

__________
Oldest coin: 1880 IHP
Detectors: Garrett AT Pro

SageGrouse · Feb 12, 2021

To me the defining line is either "notoriety" OR "Living memory within living memory"

What I mean is this: I would NOT detect Ed Gein's house, or Lizzie Borden's house. Nor would I hit Charles Manson's Spahn Ranch. The crimes, and/or the association with the crimes is too famous, too notorious. I used to live about two blocks from where the Black Dahlia was found, and you couldn'tve PAID me to go there! UH uh!
Living memory within living memory means "My grandmother was part of that!" or "Yeah, my Mom told me about..." If someone remembers someone who was alive at the time of the incident or crime... nope. Big purple flashing NOPE!

That said, I WOULD hit some place that was entirely OUT of living memory and not notorious. For instance, Yes, I would detect the site of the Andersonville Prison, say, even though my great great GREAT grandfather was held there as a prisoner of war.

Anybody else have the same sort of reactions?
Sage(WHAT happened here?!)Grouse

Gaspipe · Feb 12, 2021

That’s creepy, if I knew the history prior I would pass on that one . However as you mentioned battlefields also are sacred ground and people detect on them all the time. So bottom line it’s a personal choice.

diggin4clad · Feb 13, 2021

In Hartford Connecticut there is a school and on the edge of the playground is where an old baseball field once stood. However, before the school was built there were circuses held on the grounds and in 1944 the circus tent caught fire and 168 people were killed. A memorial to those who died has been erected on the exact spot of the tent and a number of plaques have been erected. Though there are places on the grounds that would be accessible to detecting, I would never even think of hunting that spot even though with many years of circuses and ball playing there most likely would be some good stuff under the ground.
Sue's father was a 17 year old boy who went to the circus that day but was one of the lucky ones who managed to escape the flames.

John Madill · Feb 21, 2021

A very good friend of mine's parents survived that blast, the dad was the class president. He said they rarely if ever talked about it.
My friend now gives historical presentations about the event.

HistoryHippy · Feb 22, 2021

Lemme get this straight. I'm not trying to belittle tragedies.

We detect using all kinds of research, old maps and old stories etc. Looking for places that were once there.
Old forgotten cellar holes
Old swimming holes
Battlefields
You get it places where people gathered and lost stuff

Most cellar holes... guess what...burned houses=tragedy
Battlefield = lots of tragedy
Closed swimming hole probably some tragedy.
Most parks are named after what? Dead people.
Treasure hunting is basically benefiting of somebody's tragedy a lost dime (could have been his last cash). A pirate ship full of gold lost just off of the coast and the entire crew drowned.
There was a guy who got permission to go detect the remnants of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco Texas. Found lots of spent shell casings. Video on YouTube.
As metal detectorists we are basically homegrown historians.
Spahn ranch= history. I'd hit it
Bath School bombing probably not because too many sqeamish people around.
Circus tent sure I would.
Ed Gein Im there.
Just using history and not emotion as my guide. People might think I have no heart or unsympathetic they'maybe right.
It's about finding the old relics

HistoryHippy · Feb 22, 2021

Its about finding the old relics to connect us to the past.

For some reason it posted when I was typing.

Metal Pig · Mar 25, 2021

AirmetTango said:
This article popped up in my news feed today about a tragedy that I certainly never heard about before:

America's Deadliest School Massacre

The horrific events that unfolded that day are unimaginable to anyone, but especially so from the perspective of a parent. Toward the end of the article, it mentions that the school stood and continued to be used up until the 1970's before being turned into a park. It wasn't hard to find the place on Google Earth, and a little more research showed that besides the cupola, there is also a small memorial plaque which lists the names of those who died. But the plaque doesn't specifically mention that the park is where the school stood.

Anyway, it got me to thinking, if I were just passing through that town and not familiar with the local history, I may have happily detected that park. But I wouldn't dream of it now - to me, it would be as taboo as a cemetery. It's interesting how a little historical knowledge about a location can completely change your viewpoint about it.

I guess some folks could argue that the violent deaths at the school site aren't much different than, say, a civil war battlefield. But to me, it's definitely different - maybe because it's such a major, ugly event for one small town to endure, maybe because so many children were involved, or a little of both.

What do you all think? Would you hunt that site? Or let the souls rest in peace and move on to the next site? I know I would say "rest in peace, children of Bath", then move along...

Perhaps the dead, if you actually believe that they could feel your presence and intent there, would appreciate that someone dug something up to remember them by, not just a plaque put there by politicians to win the favor of the families.

I recently bought a metal detector from a guy who originally bought it to use with his 19 year old son....who was killed by a drunk driver. I told him I will never forget where that detector came from. I dont consider it jinxed or need of being somehow consecrated and never used.

As long as you're not digging PEOPLE up and you are seriously thinking about the history you're digging up and not just the $ value, in my mind you're Kosher.

joe dert · Mar 26, 2021

Metal Pig said:
Perhaps the dead, if you actually believe that they could feel your presence and intent there, would appreciate that someone dug something up to remember them by, not just a plaque put there by politicians to win the favor of the families.

I recently bought a metal detector from a guy who originally bought it to use with his 19 year old son....who was killed by a drunk driver. I told him I will never forget where that detector came from. I dont consider it jinxed or need of being somehow consecrated and never used.

As long as you're not digging PEOPLE up and you are seriously thinking about the history you're digging up and not just the $ value, in my mind you're Kosher.

Clear rational thinking.....

BH505Man · Apr 5, 2021

I would avoid metal detecting on a spot I know tragic events happened resulting in people dying. To me that's like digging in a graveyard...sacrilege. Civil War encampments...OK.
Battlefields...No, because people died there.

Gumshoe · Apr 7, 2021

Hit it.
But do so in a classy manner.
I'd suggest getting with a local library, historian, or whatever your town offers, and make it into a "legacy" project. Give every single thing you find (minus that barber quarter :lol:

) to the library or whatever.

This accomplishes a few solid things:

You're now a donating library member, with references to back it up. This is a great help in getting future permissions.
Not just by being able to tell door knocks that you're a contributing member, but also the library or whatever could become a great ally and share local historical knowledge.

I can't stress the latter enough. This relationship has helped me endlessly.
Also, hunting greed aside, you've done a great thing. By remembering these people you're honoring them.
In the give/take that is metal detecting, this is a win/win for all involved.

Rock Jock · Apr 7, 2021

Gumshoe said:
Hit it.
But do so in a classy manner.
I'd suggest getting with a local library, historian, or whatever your town offers, and make it into a "legacy" project. Give every single thing you find (minus that barber quarter ) to the library or whatever.

This accomplishes a few solid things:

You're now a donating library member, with references to back it up. This is a great help in getting future permissions.
Not just by being able to tell door knocks that you're a contributing member, but also the library or whatever could become a great ally and share local historical knowledge.

I can't stress the latter enough. This relationship has helped me endlessly.
Also, hunting greed aside, you've done a great thing. By remembering these people you're honoring them.
In the give/take that is metal detecting, this is a win/win for all involved.

This is a fine approach, Gumshoe!

Gumshoe · Apr 7, 2021

Rock Jock said:
This is a fine approach, Gumshoe!

Thanks.

Tom_in_CA · Apr 7, 2021

Gumshoe said:
.... and make it into a "legacy" project....

Rock Jock said:
This is a fine approach, Gumshoe!

^ ^ this ^ ^

I love it : "A legacy study" . Why do we md'rs seem to start with a notion that we're reviled, despised, and likely to be questioned ? Or that our actions are somehow "inappropriate" all the time ? Such that we need to "pass" on all sorts of sites ? Why is there this mentality among us ? Why this starting premise ??

For starters, I highly doubt anyone gives 2 sh#ts about md'rs on a school grounds. It's only we md'rs who have this notion that "we're being watched" or "oh no, what will someone think ?" blah blah . Why is this ?

It's exactly as you say (if, on the odd chance, someone questioned you) : You're doing a legacy study, to make a display, blah blah. You don't even need to do it under the umbrella of some local library or museum. Just simply do it. There need not be "someone else's sanction". Heck, I do "historical studies" for "an article I'm writing" ALL THE TIME !

Gumshoe · Apr 8, 2021

Tom_in_CA said:
^ ^ this ^ ^

I love it : "A legacy study" . Why do we md'rs seem to start with a notion that we're reviled, despised, and likely to be questioned ? Or that our actions are somehow "inappropriate" all the time ? Such that we need to "pass" on all sorts of sites ? Why is there this mentality among us ? Why this starting premise ??

For starters, I highly doubt anyone gives 2 sh#ts about md'rs on a school grounds. It's only we md'rs who have this notion that "we're being watched" or "oh no, what will someone think ?" blah blah . Why is this ?

It's exactly as you say (if, on the odd chance, someone questioned you) : You're doing a legacy study, to make a display, blah blah. You don't even need to do it under the umbrella of some local library or museum. Just simply do it. There need not be "someone else's sanction". Heck, I do "historical studies" for "an article I'm writing" ALL THE TIME !

Thanks.
I love your thinking here, and I agree.
In regards to people hassling us, I always account for it because they have so many times in the past. Even in much more benign situations. That's why I suggested getting with a more established local entity, particularly in a case such as this.
I've found people are a lot more receptive when they understand that it's not "just" a treasure hunt, and you're actually into history. Although some salesmanship doesn't hurt, either

I'm pretty sure you've been at this longer than I have, so I'd love to hear some of your methods.

Here are a few other things I'll arm myself with, just in case:

- Business cards. I offer free ring and key finding.

- Yellow/orange reflective vest. Not for always, but it does make it seem more "official". Plus I get a lot less !!!! if I'm curb stripping.

- A ball cap that has "Security" written on it.

- A few "I support the (local towns) PD" T shirts.

Just a few that have helped me.

Tom_in_CA · Apr 8, 2021

Gumshoe said:
.... I'm pretty sure you've been at this longer than I have, so I'd love to hear some of your methods.....

Thanx. I'll give it some thoughts :

I notice that the rest of your email goes on to start with the prospect of "people hassling us". Are people "hassling" you Gumshoe ? Such that you think you need to defend against some supposed public ire that someone is "treasure hunting" ? Since when did anyone give 2 hoots about a man looking for loose change ? Have you REALLY ever bumped into someone who "took offense" because you were "treasure hunting " ? Do you see how it appears, again (like my post alluded to) that you think "people are watching you" and that the "average passerby" must think we're somehow inappropriate .

Is this is a real scenario you're bumping into ? Beyond rare flukes by a nosy-parker ? Such that you think you need "business cards", a "vest" and an "established entity" to vouch for you ?

Me thinks you are not facing such scrutiny. But if you are, Then I have a few possible ideas : It's very possible, that since you are starting with this premise (as evidenced by your post), that, subconsciously, you are actually portraying the body language of "looking over your shoulder". Know what I mean ? And here's where that goes south: The moment we "lock eyes" with passerbys (with the body language of "oh no, does he see me ?", or "Oh no, will be gripe ?") is the moment that those passerbys will pick up on that body language. And then sure-as-sh*t they're gonna ask themselves "Gee, what's he doing ?".

However, if you "act like you own the place" (drop this notion that you are somehow despised or disliked), then believe it or not, the average passerby doesn't give 2 hoots about you.

I even had a friend who was detecting in a ... uh ... sketchy spot (that , admittedly, he probably shouldn't be detecting). Yet at 2am , a cop (probably just on routine rounds), came along this road and spotted him (he was down digging a target at that exact moment). Naturally, the cop lit him up with his spotlight (no doubt curious as to "what's someone out here doing at 2am ?"). My friend just cracked an ear to ear grin, and gave the cop a "thumbs up" sign. The cop turned off his lights, and just drove away. My friend resumed hunting. See how "acting like you own the place" is actually, ironically, the trick ?

So often time it's our own vibes, our own starting premises, our own "evasive behavior" that merely brings on the very scrutiny we're thinking of. See ?

I'm not advocating this attitude to go to .. uh ... sketchy spots. But for pete's sake, a school ? A park ? Innocuous benign mundane places ? (like the school that started this post, for instance) : Sure ! Because the moment you think otherwise , is the moment it just becomes self-fulfilling.

Does that guarantee that every last person on earth will "love and adore you" ? No, of course not. Especially if you're doing nice-manicured turf, and someone waltzes up while you're in the middle of a deep coin. Ok, pick lower traffic times and avoid such lookie-lous.

No need for any library or museum to be an entity behind you. Besides, I don't think you'd get anyone on board with that anyhow. I'm a docent at 2 different museums, for instance, and I can guarantee you that they have no interest in doing something like this.

Hope all this makes sense.

Gumshoe · Apr 8, 2021

Tom_in_CA said:
Thanx. I'll give it some thoughts :

I notice that the rest of your email goes on to start with the prospect of "people hassling us". Are people "hassling" you Gumshoe ? Such that you think you need to defend against some supposed public ire that someone is "treasure hunting" ? Since when did anyone give 2 hoots about a man looking for loose change ? Have you REALLY ever bumped into someone who "took offense" because you were "treasure hunting " ? Do you see how it appears, again (like my post alluded to) that you think "people are watching you" and that the "average passerby" must think we're somehow inappropriate .

Is this is a real scenario you're bumping into ? Beyond rare flukes by a nosy-parker ? Such that you think you need "business cards", a "vest" and an "established entity" to vouch for you ?

Me thinks you are not facing such scrutiny. But if you are, Then I have a few possible ideas : It's very possible, that since you are starting with this premise (as evidenced by your post), that, subconsciously, you are actually portraying the body language of "looking over your shoulder". Know what I mean ? And here's where that goes south: The moment we "lock eyes" with passerbys (with the body language of "oh no, does he see me ?", or "Oh no, will be gripe ?") is the moment that those passerbys will pick up on that body language. And then sure-as-sh*t they're gonna ask themselves "Gee, what's he doing ?".

However, if you "act like you own the place" (drop this notion that you are somehow despised or disliked), then believe it or not, the average passerby doesn't give 2 hoots about you.

I even had a friend who was detecting in a ... uh ... sketchy spot (that , admittedly, he probably shouldn't be detecting). Yet at 2am , a cop (probably just on routine rounds), came along this road and spotted him (he was down digging a target at that exact moment). Naturally, the cop lit him up with his spotlight (no doubt curious as to "what's someone out here doing at 2am ?"). My friend just cracked an ear to ear grin, and gave the cop a "thumbs up" sign. The cop turned off his lights, and just drove away. My friend resumed hunting. See how "acting like you own the place" is actually, ironically, the trick ?

So often time it's our own vibes, our own starting premises, our own "evasive behavior" that merely brings on the very scrutiny we're thinking of. See ?

I'm not advocating this attitude to go to .. uh ... sketchy spots. But for pete's sake, a school ? A park ? Innocuous benign mundane places ? (like the school that started this post, for instance) : Sure ! Because the moment you think otherwise , is the moment it just becomes self-fulfilling.

Does that guarantee that every last person on earth will "love and adore you" ? No, of course not. Especially if you're doing nice-manicured turf, and someone waltzes up while you're in the middle of a deep coin. Ok, pick lower traffic times and avoid such lookie-lous.

No need for any library or museum to be an entity behind you. Besides, I don't think you'd get anyone on board with that anyhow. I'm a docent at 2 different museums, for instance, and I can guarantee you that they have no interest in doing something like this.

Hope all this makes sense.

I have a feeling geography, culture is in play here.

In regards to your first paragraph, yes. I've been physically assaulted curb stripping. As well as countless other, lesser run ins.
And just so it's stated: curbing is perfectly legal here, hence the individual was arrested. He was/is a druggie.
I'll detail all of this if/when I make my "door knocking" guide.

When I discuss things like this, bare in mind that around here parks are almost worthless. As are ball diamonds.
To find treasure in the older sense, you gotta door knock.

I'll try and articulate as best I can here. However, I ask that you don't assume I'm lying. You'll just have to take my word when I say: Trust me, I have better things to do than lie on a detector forum.

No, I'm not always "looking over my shoulder." In fact I'd suggest that 99.9% of encounters I have are positive. Even on "no's" I've made acquaintances, some of which have come back later and said yes.

I 100% agree with what you touch on pertaining to confidence.
Confidence is sales 101 (for me).
So yes I have confidence, sometimes a little too much for my own good.

As for the ideas I shot out, no, one doesn't need all of that. However if just ONE of those ideas helps get any of you get a permission, then cool. I've helped the community here a little.

And secondly my response as a whole, to you, was to your "why not" approach.
Then you come back with statements like: "No need for any library or museum to be an entity behind you."
So, I'll ask: why not?

The library as I've over stated now has helped me immensely. If that's not the case in your neck of the woods, then fine. But, again, if it helps others here, good.

I'll be happy to elaborate on any of this. My intention here only is to kick around and share ideas.

Tom_in_CA · Apr 8, 2021

I think I'm seeing the disconnect here . You say :

Gumshoe said:
.... I've been physically assaulted curb stripping. ...

Well that's a horse of a different color. Hitting curb-strips, in front of homes, is not the same as parks and schools. Yes it might be equally as legal , but.... let's be honest .... some people think you're in their yard, or are going to make a mess, blah blah. Oh sure, we can debate them as to the legalities, but ..., that's been the subject of countless threads.

And then you go on to talk about door-knocking. I don't understand that. Are you saying that you hunt people's yards too (which, yes, require door-knocking). Ok then, sure, to have some "ice-breaker cover story" does indeed come in handy. Sure.

But that was never the starting subject of this post. This post was about a school yard. Which doesn't require door-knocking nor permission. So that's where I think we're having a disconnect. You shifted from the subject of school yards (which, for sake of argument, we'll say are like parks), to another type venue, and even to the subject of private property.

to be continued :

Tom_in_CA · Apr 8, 2021

Gumshoe said:
... "No need for any library or museum to be an entity behind you."
So, I'll ask: why not? ....

If we're talking public parks, schools, beaches, forests, etc.... (that don't have an express "no md'ing" rule), then no need to have an entity behind you. I had the feeling that you were thinking that you needed to "have an entity behind you" to help deflect busy-bodies . That might walk up to you at a school, and gripe (as if you were facing constant ire ?)

But if you meant for that @ door-knocking (yards of homes, etc...), then : Sure, if you have a cover-story, as an ice-breaker, sure. For example, as noted, I docent at 2 different museums. Leading 4th grade tours, manning a desk, etc.. Each of them asks for 6 hrs. p/month. Where you might man a kiosk or desk, answer tourist questions, lead 4th graders around on a tour, etc.... It's a lot of fun ! And it got me a cool name-badge on a lanyard

And yes, I sometimes (not many) "flashed that badge" when md'ing. And explain I'm a historian from such & such museum. And as such, am doing a study. And was "... wondering if they knew anything about the stage stop that was supposed to be back in the canyon off yonder ?", etc....

I haven't done that ruse for knocking on individual home doors (that would be sort of odd). But all I'm saying is, that: If you think that such credentials would aid you, then I suggest becoming a docent. Historical societies, museums, etc... are always looking for volunteers. You get to rub shoulders with other history buffs. You get "white glove access" to behind the desk basement archives. You get a namebadge to give you an heir of officiality to why you're asking pointed questions to a farmer or whatever. It's gotten me "letters of introduction" if I need to crack into the archie-trinomial white-glove stuff. Plus it's kind of fun to meet visitors, tourists, be civically involved, etc...

I would do it that way. Instead of just walking in as a non-member, and non-docent, non-volunteer. Your notions will go a LOT further with powers-that-be of those entities, if you are an actual contributor/member. And naturally, you don't mention your *true* intentions (metal detecting), until you are a long-established member (a year perhaps ?). And are at the point where you know the folk on a first-name basis. Otherwise, it's highly unlikely that someone's gonna waltz in off-the-street and say "Hi, can you please sanction me to go dig @ such & such ?". And trust me, most museums do not need more artifact donations (if you think you're going to sway them by saying "... and I'll give you all that I find"). In fact, a lot of museums have, on their boards of directors, archie -minded people. And if they so much as HEAR the word "metal detector", you might fizzle. Contrast to if you're a member in good standing, you can feel your way around, see how the "prevailing mood" is there (are they purist archies or not).

yeah yeah, fox guarding the hen-house. I know

Here's A Park I Would Pass On...

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