The "clean or don't clean" debate :

[Tom_in_CA]

I was chiming in, on another persons' post , on another forum section, who, ironically, works for NGC. And the subject of "cleaning" came up.

I related to him a story that I'd read in one of the treasure magazines, many years ago. Here, in the next post, is what I related to him.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

There was an east coast md'r guy, back in the 1980s/90s (hence before the era of the internet) who had found a handful of LC's over the years.

One day, he began to look through the Red book coin guide, looking up each of his dates. And trying to match the grading guide instructions with his (eg.: letters of liberty showing, feathers showing, and so forth). And he discovered that he had a few better key dates. And felt that a few merited the lower circulation detail criteria.


So he gleefully brought them in to a local coin store in his area (remember, this is pre internet days). To see if they could confirm value and potentially sell to them.


He entered the coin store, and a man at the counter looked at his LCs. And : One by one, and began to offer him a pittance. The md'r objected and said : "But look at the coin guide book, you'll see that these are rare dates, and should be worth a LOT more than what you're offering".


But the coin store guy laughed and said : "But yours are all cruddy and dirty"

So the md'r said "oh, if I clean them, then will you offer more ?". But the coin store guy BRISTLED and said : "Never never never clean your coins. Because THEN FOR SURE, if you did that, then for SURE we will never buy your coins. Tsk tsk."

The dejected md'r left the coin store. With his meager worthless coins. Figuring he had coins worth nothing.

6 or 8 month passed by . One day, he pulled his coins back out to look, and figured that : "As long as they're not worth anything, I might as well clean them, for my own home show & tell collection tray sake". And he began to study all the competing methods of cleaning. And practiced on a few common date LCs with the competing methods. Till he finally decided which method leaves the least trace of "having been cleaned", etc...

I forget which method he landed on, but ... he was happy with the results. Another 6 or 8 months went by, and ... one day, admiring his collection, he decided to take THE SAME EXACT COINS to the SAME EXACT COIN STORE. Mind you that nearly 2 yrs. have gone by, by this time.

As he entered the store, he could tell that is was the exact same store clerk, that had waited on him ~ 2 yrs. earlier. But apparently the clerk did not remember him. The md'r laid the same exact LC's on the coin store counter. Without telling the clerk "metal detected" or "cleaned vs not cleaned", etc...

The clerk looked at each one, through his magnifier, consulting his guide books, and ....... one by one , began offering much more than he'd offered ~ 2 yrs. earlier.

Moral of the story ? : The old adage of "NEVER CLEAN YOUR COINS" is not always accurate, eh ? The issue is : Can you do it without leaving trace. Ie.: Can you do it "right"

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Oh, and for those east coast guys who read this, This is not Tom_in_CA conceding that LC's exist, or have any value. It's to (ahem ahem) concede a *hypothetical* point, for sake of argument. Ahem ahem, cough cough.

 

[Xxray]

It is pretty easy even for a novice to tell if a coin has been whizzed.
I doubt if the guy in your story found a novel way to clean coins that doesn't leave a trace, so either the old guy at the coin shop was pretty sloppy at his trade, or the story is a fable.

Never clean anything even slightly valuable, if $$ is the only concern, it is worth more natrually dirty than artificially whizzed. Only non intrusive method I know that can yield decent results is a soak in olive oil followed by a warm soap water bath, gentle tooth brushing and pat dry with soft cloth - Downside is the soaking can take weeks or months to have any results.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....., so either the old guy at the coin shop was pretty sloppy at his trade, or the story is a fable.
....

A few replies : I read it in a treasure mag, back in the 1990s. Not sure why someone would want to make up such a story. But .... whatever.

And as for the rest of your post : I don't disagree that .... you might get "discovered" (ie.: a Really good numismatist is going to detect "cleaned"). All I'm saying is that : It can be the lesser of 2 evils, in-the-end. Because, let's be honest : We'll get laughed out the coin store, in the condition we find them in, sometimes.

 

[Uptown603]

I was watching "Not Thursday" over the winter and Charlie was using the "pocket tumbler". He put his LC's in his pocket every time he went for a walk in the woods. By the end of the summer it looked like the dirt and crud had some what worn off and some of the coins actually looked copper again. He didn't show if they were all slicks or not, but I've thought about doing it with some of the ones I have.

 

[stetam]

Crappy LC’s and KG’s just use Andre’s pencils to clean corrosion, wash with soap and water and a toothbrush. If you need more corrosion removed use steel wool and the high areas will clean up. They ain’t super valuable so have at it.

 

[Xxray]

A few replies : I read it in a treasure mag, back in the 1990s. Not sure why someone would want to make up such a story. But .... whatever.

And as for the rest of your post : I don't disagree that .... you might get "discovered" (ie.: a Really good numismatist is going to detect "cleaned"). All I'm saying is that : It can be the lesser of 2 evils, in-the-end. Because, let's be honest : We'll get laughed out the coin store, in the condition we find them in, sometimes.

"Whatever", C'mon man !
I think just about any 2nd hand story dredged up from memory from decades ago should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not a numismatist at all but have had a life long interest in coins and I can tell a whizzed coin a mile away, you just can't put lipstick on a pig and call it anything other than a pig. If anyone asks me I'd advise not to clean but in the end, I really don't care what they do with their coins, if they want to try to make it spiffy, have at it. If it is severely crusted and nearly unrecognizable, there may not be much to lose, and electrolysis or laser cleaning may be the best bet.

 

[Cherry Picker]

I don't buy coins for my collection; I think the real value is in being found. If I did, I would think if you take a dirty coin to a coin shop, obviously, you both know the coins is going to need to be cleaned, or take what it is worth as a dirty coin that neither of you knows the condition because it is dirty.

I have a few coins that I have done nothing but run water on them. I really don't think it has increased the value. Especially coppers.

 

[randy]

This reminds me of the "two foul" problem in basketball. In basketball, it is orthodoxy to take a player out if he collects 2 fouls in the first half, the logic being "take him out so he doesn't foul out". Obviously logically stupid, but coaches follow this rule like sheep. Until recently. Two elite level college coaches have been bucking this rule, and both made the NCAA final 4 this year. A very long article on this in some sports publication at the time, but hardcore fans have been aware of this stupidity for decades.

Same with cleaning coins. They say cleaning coins reduces the value by 90%. But, 10% of worthless is still worthless. And this rule isn't even true. At least for very early dated gold coins, where problem-free coins are very difficult to find. In that market, people seem to pay about 30% less for a coin slabbed "details cleaned". Given how expensive those coins are, that is still real money, but people will pay up for a piece of that history. Getting one of those rare coins 90% off is a joke, not in that market. YMMV of course.

I have a dug chain cent I intend to clean. Just haven't got around to it. As of now, you have to get it wet and hold it at a certain angle in certain light to see the detail. Its estimated that the total population of this coin is about 1000. I just want to look at it and see the detail without alot of work. I have no idea what it is worth in its present state, but it will be worth more to me if I can look at it and show it to people.

 

[Cherry Picker]

This reminds me of the "two foul" problem in basketball. In basketball, it is orthodoxy to take a player out if he collects 2 fouls in the first half, the logic being "take him out so he doesn't foul out". Obviously logically stupid, but coaches follow this rule like sheep. Until recently. Two elite level college coaches have been bucking this rule, and both made the NCAA final 4 this year. A very long article on this in some sports publication at the time, but hardcore fans have been aware of this stupidity for decades.

Same with cleaning coins. They say cleaning coins reduces the value by 90%. But, 10% of worthless is still worthless. And this rule isn't even true. At least for very early dated gold coins, where problem-free coins are very difficult to find. In that market, people seem to pay about 30% less for a coin slabbed "details cleaned". Given how expensive those coins are, that is still real money, but people will pay up for a piece of that history. Getting one of those rare coins 90% off is a joke, not in that market. YMMV of course.

I have a dug chain cent I intend to clean. Just haven't got around to it. As of now, you have to get it wet and hold it at a certain angle in certain light to see the detail. Its estimated that the total population of this coin is about 1000. I just want to look at it and see the detail without alot of work. I have no idea what it is worth in its present state, but it will be worth more to me if I can look at it and show it to people.

Agreed Randy.

I see it as a simple decision. Both the buyer & seller know the dug coin is going to grade as "Environmental Damage". The buyer doesn't really know what they are getting, and the seller doesn't truly know what they are selling until the coin has been cleaned.

 

[hoser]

Simple rule of thumb, if you plan on selling your coins don't clean with anything except water and pat dry. You can also get a water pic that acts like a very small pressure washer that does a good job with blowing some of the crud out of crevasses without rubbing. I look at it this way, my coins will pass down to my grandkids and should they choose to keep them, those coins will be worth more cleaned or not cleaned simply because of their age. Boils down to personal choice IMHO.

 

[stetam]

This coin is AS FOUND. Lots of scratches from a couple hundred years in dirt. Cleaning would not have made a difference and NO coin”expert” would be able to know if it had been cleaned or not. The “cleaning devalues” coins myth is a ploy to pay less plain and simple. I have some I cleaned and there is no way you could tell.