Single frequency versus multi....

[John Madill]

Reading about precious metals I see that silver best responds to low numbers like 4kHz and gold to higher numbers like 40kHz.

My question is would using a single low frequency machine like an XP ORX for silver work better than the multi frequency machine that covers that low number while running the other numbers too?

Same question on the gold, at a high frequency.

 

[Diga]

the multi frequency machine that covers that low number while running the other numbers too?

Even if a SMF detector is transmitting low and high frequencies, the other half of the equation is: What frequencies are actually being received and processed?

Certain manufacturer's SMF advertisements, imply that low and high frequencies are being transmitted and processed, so that you get "the best of both worlds". If that was true, then SMF detectors would only need one SMF mode. Yet, SMF detectors have more than one SMF mode. For example, Park1 which processes at around the 5-10 khz range, and Park2 which processes at around the 20-40 khz range (weighted processing).

So what's actually received and processed in SMF mode, is very close to a particular SF when it comes to identification of the target.

 

[jmaclen]

According to recent testing by Carl Moreland, Geotech, Carl NC on this forum, the Legend and Equinox 600/800 SMF operating frequencies are:

Legend

M1 is 2.6kHz + 7.8kHz + 39kHz (same as the Equinox)

M2 is the same as M1. Likely they are software weighting the results.

Salt (both MD & MW) is 2.6kHz + 7.8kHz + 28.6kHz (Equinox is 2.6+7.8+23.4)

Equinox 600/800

Park and Field 2.6, 7.8 and 39 kHz

Beach 1 and Beach 2 2.6, 7.8 and 23.4 kHz.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So a person using either of these SMF detectors is getting information from three different frequencies. So, each operating/multi mode has slightly to very different amounts of each of these three different frequencies being processed simultaneously.

This is just my experience. I have owned an ORX, Deus 1 and still own a Deus 2, Nox 800, Nox 900 and Legend. Even with Deus 2's mono frequency mode and the Nox models and Legend using their selectable single frequencies, deeper targets of any conductivity have much more accurate target IDs and at least equal depth in their Multi modes as using those detector's selectable single frequencies where I detect.

Others may have and actually have expressed the opposite from what I just reported. Nothing wrong with that. Different detecting conditions can cause different results.

 

[Diga]

If it wasn't for EMI, I would choose SMF every time. Reason being, SMF has noticeably better target identification on fringe targets. However, SMF is far more suspectable to EMI than SF. As such, on some sites, it's possible to have to reduce the sensitivity when using SMF, to the point that a particular SF mode will outperform the SMF modes.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Reading about precious metals I see that silver best responds to low numbers like 4kHz and gold to higher numbers like 40kHz.

My question is would using a single low frequency machine like an XP ORX for silver work better than the multi frequency machine that covers that low number while running the other numbers too?

Same question on the gold, at a high frequency.

You asked two very good questions.
I don’t post much here anymore.
I will try to answer your questions.

First. Can I take a 4 kHz single freq and locate on average as many copper snd silver coins per sweep, vs a good multi freq detector program? No.

Second can I take a single freq 40 kHz detector and find as many low conductors per sweep vs a good multi freq detector program? No.

I encourage you to go watch my channel, I actually do a load of comparison tests comparing mukti freq Deus 2 to single freq ops. What’s good about this is Deus 2 can be run in lot different single freq ops vs all other multi freq detectors out there. So it paints a real good picture imo.

Multi freq can give advantage on both nonferrous near iron and near lower conductors (in case of higher conductor).

Now single freq, using just one freq at atime will have its strengths and weaknesses. These weaknesses will be lot more vs mufti freq.

I posted a video the other day. And here’s what I said. Minelab May have slipped up not putting single freq ops on their FBS/FbS 2 units.
Why?
Because if they would have it would have been made apparent faster and moreso to the advantages of their multi frequency ops. Folks may have caught on faster to the multi freq thingy.

Remember the detecting situation has to exist for multi to shine over single freq. This goes for single freq used vs target swept as well masking be it caused by either or lower conductive trash or ferrous.

If all targets were sitting solo, would single freq still have equal or better advantage vs multi freq? No, not all the time.
Would depend on soil mineralization. And ID of deeper targets even in milder soil multi freq can have advantage.

Multi freq has higher potential to do better selective digging overall vs single freq.

You’ll notice many single freq detectors run on 13-15 kHz. This is not by accident. These give the best of all worlds generally. Vs using say a detector at 10kHz or less or a detector running 18 kHz or higher.

This all really goes to laws of averages for locating a find and even possibly getting more accurate ID (conductive level) of target.

Are multi freq the end all? Nope.
Are multi freq detectors perfect? Nope.

You get to hunt a site one time or spend one day.
A skilled user of multi freq (the right model) detectorist should have better odds of locating targets and doing more more select digging,

You mentioned ORX. I think it IDs like Deus 1. Meaning once a target gets so deep (yet still detectsble) it will ID in higher vdi range.
Example.
A 8 inch dime and a 8” nickel have a good chance of giving more or less same tone and more or less same ID.
If you sweep both the 8” deep nickel and dime with Deus 2 using multi freq nickel will ID around 64 and dime will ID around 91.
So ORX is not a good selective digging machine vs some of the multi freq out there. ORX can do well though as long as site has had no fill dirt, but when a user is digging deeper target (conductivity more unknown.

I hope these comments help you.
If you watch some of my videos you will hear me comment on the power of multi freq using Deus 2 and yes even the Manticore in tests.

The test I do elevated, they do show detector tendencies. If they didn’t I wouldn’t be doing.

I also add there are times when single freq will see nonferrous in test comparisons I do. But and a big but, lots of times there will be a coil height advantage above test or a coil (being able to be swept closer to iron) of nonferrous using multi frequency vs single freq. Plus there can even be a coil span advantage for detection using multi freq vs single freq. All this attributes of multi freq can give user advantage in the field (not knowing what user is sweeping coil over) to be able to locate more targets per sweeps made with coil.

Now not all multi freq detectors are created equal. Not even all multi freq programs on the same detector are created equal. A user must learn which program has which strengths and weaknesses. I have tested heavily Etrac, Equinox, Manticore made by Minelab, and Deus 2 made by Xp and Legend made by Nokta. I used all these detectors in the wild a lot as well. Legend has had update since my last testing. I sold it to a friend up the road from me. I gave my Equinox away to a stranger online via a drawing I did.

Cheers.

 

[Big Boys Hobbies]

Keep in mind while you're doing your testing that single frequencies do much better at air testing and freshly buried targets.

My frequencies do much better at testing on a real target. It's been on the ground for years. Got packed down, got hot, got cold, starting to get the halo effect, etc..

Very hard to compare signals with real-world results and not demos on freshly burried, targets or targets sitting on top of the ground.

 

[seral]

If you know what exactly you are looking for, then you need one frequency. If you're looking for anything, then multi-frequency wins. This is physics on planet earth, this is how it works.

 

[Cherry Picker]

So many fall for the marketing spiel. More is not always better, and this is one of those cases.

If you have a SMF with SF option it is easy to find the answer yourself. We have gone through this discussion several times in the past, and if I remember right, each ended when two of the most knowledgeable detector users, NC_Carl & Monte both agreed that a single frequency will outperform a detector running in SMF.

I see the new SMF, as long as it has the SF option, to be the best of both worlds, but, simply put, the SMF is a feature that is best for nonspecific hunting. A convenient feature not a performance feature in my opinion. Single frequency uses less filters, so it has faster recovery time, and can target and get a better response from a particular target, including TID, that SMF can get conflicting responses depending on conditions. 15 kHz seems to be the golden frequency rising to the top now.

Look at it this way. 4 kHz, for example, will, if at all, give a very poor response to a small gold earring, 40 kHz will give a great response to a small gold earring. So, getting 4 poor less reliable responses to confirm the one great response is not a good thing. 40 kHz would give the best performance, in this case, period.

 

[metaladdict]

So many fall for the marketing spiel. More is not always better, and this is one of those cases.

If you have a SMF with SF option it is easy to find the answer yourself. We have gone through this discussion several times in the past, and if I remember right, each ended when two of the most knowledgeable detector users, NC_Carl & Monte both agreed that a single frequency will outperform a detector running in SMF.

I see the new SMF, as long as it has the SF option, to be the best of both worlds, but, simply put, the SMF is a feature that is best for nonspecific hunting. A convenient feature not a performance feature in my opinion. Single frequency uses less filters, so it has faster recovery time, and can target and get a better response from a particular target, including TID, that SMF can get conflicting responses depending on conditions. 15 kHz seems to be the golden frequency rising to the top now.

Look at it this way. 4 kHz, for example, will, if at all, give a very poor response to a small gold earring, 40 kHz will give a great response to a small gold earring. So, getting 4 poor less reliable responses to confirm the one great response is not a good thing. 40 kHz would give the best performance, in this case, period.

If it floats your boat,row your own canoe.

 

[rogueaviation]

Don't the guys with the oscilloscopes typically find that all the MF, SMF, FMF, etc units typically use about two frequencies at a time?

The way I understood the frequency stuff was that the two "active" frequencies were harmonics of each other, and one was used to kinda check the other to make the VDI more accurate.

Anybody else know any more about this?

--Matt

 

[Beachhunt1]

So many fall for the marketing spiel. More is not always better, and this is one of those cases.

Let me know how the "marketing spiel" works when you're standing on a wet salt beach with a SF detector!

 

[jmaclen]

Let me know how the "marketing spiel" works when you're standing on a wet salt beach with a SF detector!

Dave, you and I and thousands of other avid VLF and pulse induction detector users deal with high concentrations of magnetite/black sand, maghemite and/or salt every time we go detecting. The Manticore, Equinox, Deus 2 and Legend were created to help us with our type of detecting. They also have selectable single frequency choices which are very helpful too sometimes.

Thousands of other avid detector users simply don't, never have or never will deal with the kind of detecting conditions that many of us know all too well. They simply have no clue and until they do they won't believe a word we say about the benefits of high quality simultaneous multi frequency technology like what is found in the Manticore, Equinox models, Deus 2, Legend and even the beginner level Vanquish models and the Garrett Apex. The Vanquish and Apex are decent saltwater wet beach detectors but in highly iron mineralized ground they suffer. The other ones I listed are great beach VLF detectors and great high iron mineralized ground VLF detectors because they have fantastic simultaneous multi frequency technology. Not hype, not a spiel as you and I both know........it's real and it's what turned my entire detecting hobby around and keeps me going. Right before the Equinox was released I was contemplating just giving up on this hobby except for gold prospecting with pulse induction detectors. Every single frequency detector I tried and some great older tech SMF detectors like the Whites DFX, V3i and the Minelab CTX 3030 simply could not handle the ground conditions where I detect most often since their SMF tech just couldn't cut it. I am certainly not alone in that experience and neither are you Dave.

Here is a little 1 minute 45 second video using the Equinox 800, a sandwich bag of magnetite particles that I removed from gold bearing Colorado dirt, a gold ring and a silver ring. I use Beach 2 but I could have used any of the Equinox multi tone modes and the Multi setting for frequency. If I used any of the single frequency settings, all I get is -9 and +40 or solid iron wrap around.

 

[Cherry Picker]

Don't the guys with the oscilloscopes typically find that all the MF, SMF, FMF, etc units typically use about two frequencies at a time?

The way I understood the frequency stuff was that the two "active" frequencies were harmonics of each other, and one was used to kinda check the other to make the VDI more accurate.

Anybody else know any more about this?

--Matt

Once you peel off the marketing hype, yes, for the most part, 2 primary frequencies are transmitted. The same has been done for 20 years now. It just has a new shiny coat to make it look like new technology. I'm not sure about the harmonics tho. My understanding is the 2 primary frequencies are within a close range, but not just harmonics. I know my Whites DFX, in SMF mode then called "Best Data", transmitted 3 kHz and 15 kHz, or each in SFM.

For the longest time, we were led to believe that Minelab FBS was transmitting 28 frequencies simultaneously when now we know it was still only 2. As far as I know, the only detector that actually transmits more than 2 primary frequencies is the White V3i which transmits 3. 2.5 kHz, 7.5 kHz and 22.5 kHz. I'm not trusting Minelab's claims obviously. I'll wait and see a private oscilloscope. Seems to me someone already did, and found it was still only 2 primary frequencies.

 

[Beachhunt1]

Thousands of other avid detector users simply don't, never have or never will deal with the kind of detecting conditions that many of us know all too well. They simply have no clue and until they do they won't believe a word we say about the benefits of high quality simultaneous multi frequency technology like what is found in the Manticore, Equinox models, Deus 2, Legend and even the beginner level Vanquish models and the Garrett Apex.

Very true statement! I would like to add the only standout and that is the MDT 8000 {Tarsacci}

This single frequency detector was outstanding in wet salt and had the best black sand handling capabilities of ANY detector made today. If I could have run it in a higher frequency than 9kHz and there was not an iron wrap around issues with bi-metal coins I would have sold my Equinox and never bought a Deus2.

BTW> I am still struggling with the Deus2 and black sand here. I did clean it up a little with a reactivity of 1 but at 1.5 there was diminishing returns on depth. The only saving grace is the detectors ability to throw you a number on deep targets.

 

[jmaclen]

Don't the guys with the oscilloscopes typically find that all the MF, SMF, FMF, etc units typically use about two frequencies at a time?

The way I understood the frequency stuff was that the two "active" frequencies were harmonics of each other, and one was used to kinda check the other to make the VDI more accurate.

Anybody else know any more about this?

--Matt

Check out posts #3 and #5 above within this topic for partial answers.

 

[rogueaviation]

Check out posts #3 and #5 above within this topic for partial answers.

Awesome! I was flipping between this and another Deus post, and missed those.

Lots of good info here.

--Matt

 

[The Lama]

Very true statement! I would like to add the only standout and that is the MDT 8000 {Tarsacci}

This single frequency detector was outstanding in wet salt and had the best black sand handling capabilities of ANY detector made today. If I could have run it in a higher frequency than 9kHz and there was not an iron wrap around issues with bi-metal coins I would have sold my Equinox and never bought a Deus2.

BTW> I am still struggling with the Deus2 and black sand here. I did clean it up a little with a reactivity of 1 but at 1.5 there was diminishing returns on depth. The only saving grace is the detectors ability to throw you a number on deep targets.

Yeah i can't believe how few people know about the tarsacci i would much rather have one for my type of hunting than a nox or d2

 

[seral]

Yeah i can't believe how few people know about the tarsacci i would much rather have one for my type of hunting than a nox or d2

if you make good devices, you will soon end up with business ... capitalism slows down the development of technology ...

 

[Sojourner57]

If it wasn't for EMI, I would choose SMF every time. Reason being, SMF has noticeably better target identification on fringe targets. However, SMF is far more suspectable to EMI than SF. As such, on some sites, it's possible to have to reduce the sensitivity when using SMF, to the point that a particular SF mode will outperform the SMF modes.

I wonder why they don't make a switch that allows both multi frequency and single frequency modes. Obviously a multi frequency MD is capable of more than one frequency, so why not let the user pick multi mode or single mode and which frequency they want to use.

 

[Diga]

I wonder why they don't make a switch that allows both multi frequency and single frequency modes. Obviously a multi frequency MD is capable of more than one frequency, so why not let the user pick multi mode or single mode and which frequency they want to use.

Many, if not most, of the SMF detectors, are capable of using various single frequencies.