Please help ID this bullet! Civil war era possibly? I need a bullet person here

[old-raven]

So I went out earlier today and hunted around, I posted the finds here earlier but there's this bullet i found and I'm starting to wonder about it. Check it out, a 3 (or 2) ring, 11mm x 15mm round, there is rifling present. My assumption was 45 ACP but now I'm not so sure, the length is weird and there's the matter of the rings. The base is solid, I don't think it's jacketed. Is this thing as old as I think? 1800s? Bullet experts come help me!!

 

[stetam]

Nope. Brass jacketed and crimped makes it modern.

 

[old-raven]

Nope. Brass jacketed and crimped makes it modern.

it's jacketed? I tried swabbing with vinegar to strip the patina a bit but no changes. Usually brass or copper come right clean with a little vinegar. Maybe you see something I don't, bullets are not my specialty

 

[old-raven]

Nope. Brass jacketed and crimped makes it modern.

But otherwise the crimping perhaps is diagnostic so I'll trust you

 

[stetam]

it's jacketed? I tried swabbing with vinegar to strip the patina a bit but no changes. Usually brass or copper come right clean with a little vinegar. Maybe you see something I don't, bullets are not my specialty

Yeah, I saw the jacketing on your “from the bottom” pic right away and that crimp is definitely modern. 1900’s

 

[old-raven]

Yeah, I saw the jacketing on your “from the bottom” pic right away and that crimp is definitely modern. 1900’s

Ok, thank you for clearing it up. I saw it initially and thought it must be modern, finding a stray 1800s round where I found this would be odd but not impossible. We only had 1 minor CW conflict in the immediate area and nothing beyond artillery was deployed so there wasn't some big gun fight. Ya never know though, worth a second look. Thanks again!

 

[stetam]

You’re welcome and keep digging. I’m sure there’s something around. You never know.

 

[VA-REB]

Whenever you see the crimp marks inside the grooves, that tells you it is post civil war. Im not positive, but I think that method started in the 1870’s.

 

[Jelly_936]

That’s not a jacketed bullet. It’s clearly lead. A jacketed bullet is a brass jacket around a lead core. This bullet did not ever have a brass jacket. Even though they were starting to be produced around the 1890s.

The ring with the vertical lines, cannelures, are used in crimping the bullet into the casing. This process came about in the 1870s-1880s. This bullet is for sure post civil war but could easily be 140 years old. Most likely though it is more modern, probably early 1900-1920s ish. The older 1880s ones I find commonly have that white patina old bullets develop in the dirt. Yours appears more grayish so that leads me to believe that it is newer unless you found it in the water, as they will be more grayish than white.

If you were able to take measurements with calipers you’d be able to figure out the caliber which would help you identify it much faster.

I hunt 1870s/80s homesites very regularly in my area and these are very common. I’d guess .32 caliber or so. Look up smokeless cartridges from this time period.

 

[old-raven]

That’s not a jacketed bullet. It’s clearly lead. A jacketed bullet is a brass jacket around a lead core. This bullet did not ever have a brass jacket. Even though they were starting to be produced around the 1890s.

The ring with the vertical lines, cannelures, are used in crimping the bullet into the casing. This process came about in the 1870s-1880s. This bullet is for sure post civil war but could easily be 140 years old. Most likely though it is more modern, probably early 1900-1920s ish. The older 1880s ones I find commonly have that white patina old bullets develop in the dirt. Yours appears more grayish so that leads me to believe that it is newer unless you found it in the water, as they will be more grayish than white.

If you were able to take measurements with calipers you’d be able to figure out the caliber which would help you identify it much faster.

I hunt 1870s/80s homesites very regularly in my area and these are very common. I’d guess .32 caliber or so. Look up smokeless cartridges from this time period.

Well, I tried cleaning the surface with vinegar to see if it would polish up, certainly with copper this method will restore it to a beautiful shine quickly. Brass does the same under most conditions. We now have one claiming it's jacketed, another saying it's not, my test does not support the idea that there's a jacket but that's not the last word. The crimping suggests it's after the late 1800s so we can fall back on that. It's not civil war era, this is clear and I'm hardly surprised, it was found on the floodplain of a river at just a few inches depth so it's improbable that it could be 1800s anything but you never know, the forces that move and deposit silt can just as easily uncover things as bury them. The area it was found was indeed solid ground in the 1800s and has been so all this time though it is a former back swamp. Not civil war era, potentially late 1800s but that's what I hate about finding bullets, there's rarely a way to assign anything even close to a date, even trying to narrow it down to a specific decade is out. It's bagged up with other finds from the location, it's presence has nothing to do with the old subsurface farm dump that exists there so it's an incidental outlier, most of the bullets I find in the general area are. it cannot help date the particular site it was found in, not even broadly and vice versa.
Oh, I provided precise measurements with a caliper in the original post, 11 mm wide by 15 mm long. Typically if I find 11 mm slugs they're 45 ACP, based on my research this isn't that. Dunno

 

[Jelly_936]

Yeah these kinds of bullets are very common, again at least on the sites I hunt in my area.

They could belong to the site and could be used to document the sites age but they could just as easily been fired from a mile away and landed at/on the site. I photograph, document and store all of the sites I hunt together for preservation purposes. I have a lot of these kinds of bullets in these homesite bags and some match with the site some don’t. Bullets are just hard to use to date a site really on their own, you need more context on site type and other finds that indicate the age, which you obviously know.

I’m not trying to be argumentative about the bullet but I’m very confident in the fact that it is a post civil war non jacketed bullet from the 1880s ish - mid 1900s.

 

[old-raven]

Yeah these kinds of bullets are very common, again at least on the sites I hunt in my area.

They could belong to the site and could be used to document the sites age but they could just as easily been fired from a mile away and landed at/on the site. I photograph, document and store all of the sites I hunt together for preservation purposes. I have a lot of these kinds of bullets in these homesite bags and some match with the site some don’t. Bullets are just hard to use to date a site really on their own, you need more context on site type and other finds that indicate the age, which you obviously know.

I’m not trying to be argumentative about the bullet but I’m very confident in the fact that it is a post civil war non jacketed bullet from the 1880s ish - mid 1900s.

Oh no arguments. Discussion yes but I certainly am not arguing. Actually, my little chemical test does support the idea that this bullet is NOT jacketed. I mean, some brass patinas don't strip readily but I've never had problems putting a high shine on brass and copper with a little vinegar. My vinegar test did not affect the surface at all so I tend to side with the idea that there's no jacket on this one. That suggests it could be a hair older but not civil war older. The farm dump itself thus far has yielded mid 20th century stuff, actually I've found a fair bit of cool old pieces over there, some collectable and some just pretty so very good hunting ground. There's a possibility this bullet was fired at some old bottles back in the day and if that's the case then it's probably some time between 1900 and 1940.
No idea, I'm with you on the no jacket thing though. I keep junk like this associated with other finds from the locations they come from. I find that throwing away apparent trash items doesn't help the cause when trying to date sites, I'll usually regret it later so who knows, maybe the dots will connect and this bullet will end up telling more of a story than I realize now. Bagged up, marked and filed away.

 

[Rock Jock]

I'm wondering if it is a .44 caliber slug as used in the .44 caliber pistols such as the lower velocity .44 S&W Special smokeless ammo in the S&W New Century revolver (1907). It is still a popular round. You might scrape the base of the slug with a pen knife to see if it is white metal lead or yellow metal brass. My guess is lead. I note that the crimp is from a machined cannelure tool. In my experience, these are characteristically imparted by an additional processing step after the slug is cast or swaged.

 

[old-raven]

I'm wondering if it is a .44 caliber slug as used in the .44 caliber pistols such as the lower velocity .44 S&W Special smokeless ammo in the S&W New Century revolver (1907). It is still a popular round. You might scrape the base of the slug with a pen knife to see if it is white metal lead or yellow metal brass. My guess is lead. I note that the crimp is from a machined cannelure tool. In my experience, these are characteristically imparted by an additional processing step after the slug is cast or swaged.

Oh good call. I will try scratching the slug. .44 was one of the listed possible bullet types for the one I found.

 

[old-raven]

Ok, just followed Rock Jock's suggestion here of scratching the round. The verdict? No jacket. Not only did the knife cut easily into the metal but it revealed shiny lead below. This bullet is NOT JACKETED

 

[Jelly_936]

Old raven I wasn’t meaning you and I were disagreeing over your bullet being jacketed, I was just trying to be polite and respectful in disagreeing with earlier opinions on it being jacketed.
I’m always for polite respectful debate or disagreeing because that’s how we figure things out and learn and grow. Society needs way more of it in my option but I digress.

Like you, I try not to throw any thing away that is not obvious trash, pulltab, aluminum can, etc. I keep everything within reason and document with a log and photographs. There have been many times that I have gone back to a homesite bag and discovered that something that could get tossed out as trash was actually a something or other. Maybe idk what it is but someone will or someday I might be further educated.

 

[old-raven]

Old raven I wasn’t meaning you and I were disagreeing over your bullet being jacketed, I was just trying to be polite and respectful in disagreeing with earlier opinions on it being jacketed.
I’m always for polite respectful debate or disagreeing because that’s how we figure things out and learn and grow. Society needs way more of it in my option but I digress.

Like you, I try not to throw any thing away that is not obvious trash, pulltab, aluminum can, etc. I keep everything within reason and document with a log and photographs. There have been many times that I have gone back to a homesite bag and discovered that something that could get tossed out as trash was actually a something or other. Maybe idk what it is but someone will or someday I might be further educated.

Oh, it was good to get a series of varying opinions. In the end someone suggested something I hadn't even thought to do: try scratching the metal lol. Sometimes it takes a village ya know?

 

[Jelly_936]

Oh, it was good to get a series of varying opinions. In the end someone suggested something I hadn't even thought to do: try scratching the metal lol. Sometimes it takes a village ya know?

It does sometimes take a village, you are correct lol

 

[Picketwire]

Closest I could find is 44-40 black powder bullet, .428 diameter and .595 length. I found a 44 Ballard reference but the bullet was about a tenth of an inch shorter but closer to 11 mm at .423, and 42 Wesson at .432 diameter but longer and pointed. 11mm is .423, not .452 like the 45ACP. Weight in grains is also important information.

 

[Barry]

Perhaps this may help....