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Attn: All ML Vanquish Owners...”High Iron-Bias Bug”

Raphis

Elite Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2011
Messages
2,383
Location
So Cal
Hello ML Vanquish owners,

Please try the following test on your Vanquish and report back on this thread your results...

I am getting unexpected results when I place a dime (silver or clad) on top of a nickel. The Vanquish returns a -4 or -5 (iron) in this configuration, regardless what mode the machine is in.

The same situation happens when I place a nickel on top of a dime or copper/zinc penny. Iron ID’s will also display when a dime is placed on top of a square tab. I’m certain there are other scenarios where two non-ferrous objects placed on top of each other will produce unexpected iron ID’s, without the presence of any ferrous targets nearby.....not a good result! 👎

I’d love to hear back with any Vanquish owner the results of the above tests, but I’m certain now this problem affects all Vanquish owners, meaning there’s an issue with the software in the Vanquish machines that Minelab will need to fix.

I have a friend with a NOX 800 who says the above tests that produce negative ID’s on the Vanquish will produce unexpected Iron ID’s on his 800 “only” when setting iron bias to the max value of 9.

UPDATE:
I, as a few others have already done, have contacted Minelab support about this iron bias issue on the Vanquish machines. I’m awaiting a callback from ML to find out what they are going to do. A quick fix for them would be to provide a software update that would internally lower the “high” iron bias mode a couple levels from max so that non-ferrous targets with different conductivities stacked on top of each other (without any iron nearby) can continue to sound like a non-ferrous target. In the meantime, setting the Vanquish to “Low” iron bias after power up (540 owners only, unfortunately) is the quickest (no software update needed) fix, although a low iron bias setting will usually result in more iron sounding like a non-ferrous target...in other words more iron will be dug that would have been ignored otherwise.

Thanks,
Raphis
Dan
 
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Vanquish 540 w/ V8 coil

On clean ground with no signal at all before the test. Merc sitting directly on top of a clad nickel. I get a good 24-28 signal. When I switch to all metal, I get -5 and -6 with the occasional 24-25 blip.

Just for testing, I switched it and put the nickel on top of the Merc. I get a really jumpy signal from 16-28 and it will not pinpoint accurately at all.
 
HIB and LIB - - - Issues I have been working with for about three weeks now and am in a discussion about this dilemma, and some other things, with the right man at Minelab. He'll have my next e-mail when he gets to work Monday and, like you, I am hoping to get a good answer in our discussions.

Now, to your post and: → → "How to make your test work correctly."


Hello ML Vanquish owners,

Please try the following test on your Vanquish and report back on this thread your results...

I am getting unexpected results when I place a dime (silver or clad) on top of a nickel. The Vanquish returns a -4 or -5 (iron) in this configuration, regardless what mode the machine is in.

The same situation happens when I place a nickel on top of a dime or copper/zinc penny.
Your post was just called to my attention about twenty minutes ago by a detecting buddy, and I knew right away WHAT was causing it. In my discussion with Minelab AU I hope to learn the WHY it behaves this way.

Place a Nickel on the ground and a Dime a few inches away. (We are talking about USA coinage here.) Turn your Vanquish 540 'On' and sweep over each of the single coins in a normal manner and get pretty much a 'normal' audio and VDI response. Great.

Now, stack the Dime on top of the Nickel and re-sweep it. The Iron Audio is also showing a -5 VDI NOT normal.

Place the Nickel on top of the Dime and you'll likely get a Low-Tone Iron Audio and the VDI might read -4. Also, NOT normal.


HERE'S A FIX: The above occurred because you were operating in HIGH Iron Bias. Simply activate the LOW Iron Bias function.

Re-sweep the two stacked scenarios and you'll gt a more normal blended VDI of the two coupled conductivity targets, slightly different based on their stacked orientation.

So, leave the V-540 in LIB and go about your day-to-day detecting and not be concerned about the non-ferrous coins producing that Low-Tone / Ferrous-range VDI report.


All other configurations of coins produce expected, positive conductive ID’s.
I’d love to hear back the results of these tests with any Vanquish owner....I have a friend with a NOX 800 who says this above test produces expected results...not negative ID’s like it does on the Vanquish.

Thanks,
Raphis
Dan
Have your friend tinker with his EQ-800 and the Iron Bias to try and duplicate the High Iron Bias setting with it and see what happens.

As my discussions continue with Minelab about some of these behavior issues, I'll be glad to share what I learn.

Happy Hunting, with whatever you use and wherever you go.

Monte
 
Possible glitch

I just fired up the 540 a day silver dime combined with a nickel are almost non existent with little to no report. Nickel with a new zinc, Indian head , or wheat report ok . I am really puzzled about the nickel on top , or on bottom of silver dime not reporting with good audio !! I don’t pay a lot of attention to the I’d numbers. Maybe Minelab could chime in on this with an explanation! HH Tony
 
Monte is absolutely correct on both answers as usual lol. Minelab usually don't reply on these forums. Very rare if any that I've seen and I've been on the forums a little while also. Monte is correct on the iron bias issue. Hold horse shoe button down til you see a small screw appear on left lower screen and the retest. You should see normal operation. Remember if possible always use least amount of discrimination and iron bias... Iron bias is in my opinion a form of discrimination ..
 
Thanks to all for testing out your Vanquish machines and reporting your results, including the well wishes for me...I’m doing fine...just took a long hiatus from the forums...still detecting (almost) as much as years past when I was posting on here!

A big thanks to you, Monte, for informing me about the iron bias setting on the vanquish 👍🏼 Also, your inquiry about having my buddy set his iron bias on his NOX 800 to high was spot on!! On the 800, only the highest iron bias setting (9), produced iron ID’s with the stacked dime on a nickel....all lower iron bias settings produced expected non-ferrous ID’s. Also, simply placing a dime on a square tab will also produce the iron ID’s...a more likely scenario with the amount of tabs in the ground in older, trashy parks.

Yes, the temporary fix for 540 owners would be to switch the machine to the low iron bias setting upon power up, but the 340,440 owners are up sh** creek...they don’t have low bias on their machines....Hopefully, Minelab come out with a software update on the near future...

Using low iron bias, however, would equate to more iron dig (getting fooled), which many of our trashy parks here in so cal have high amounts of.
 
...Have your friend tinker with his EQ-800 and the Iron Bias to try and duplicate the High Iron Bias setting with it and see what happens...

...A big thanks to you, Monte, for informing me about the iron bias setting on the vanquish 👍🏼 Also, your inquiry about having my buddy set his iron bias on his NOX 800 to high was spot on!! On the 800, only the highest iron bias setting (9), produced iron ID’s with the stacked dime on a nickel....all lower iron bias settings produced expected non-ferrous ID’s. Also, simply placing a dime on a square tab will also produce the iron ID’s...a more likely scenario with the amount of tabs in the ground in older, trashy parks...


I’ve been following this thread with interest - I don’t have a Vanquish, but I do have an EQ800...plus, whenever Monte posts, there’s always something interesting to learn!

Anyway, when the thread first posted, I went out to the garage to try a dime/nickel stack, because I wondered if the issue might carry over to the Equinox. I breathed a sigh of relief, because I got expected non-ferrous results - but I was using my usual hunt settings which includes IB set at 0.

Now that I’ve seen Monte’s post and that Raphis’ friend’s 800 was also affected with a higher IB setting, I decided to do the test again - and at first, I was left scratching my head. I was still consistently getting expected non-ferrous readings/tones with my iron bias maxed out regardless of whether I was using FE or F2.

So here’s the interesting part - I store my machine with the shaft in the shortened position and I didn’t bother to extend the shaft, so when I first was performing the test, I was swinging with the coil roughly 5 to 6” above the dime/nickel stack the whole time. I also have a significant amount of EMI at my house, so I needed to turn my sensitivity down to 10 to quiet/stabilize the machine enough to do the test. All of this combined to give me consistent, expected, non-ferrous readings using both FE 9 and F2 9 on both a nickel/dime stack and a pull tab/dime stack. On a whim, I finally bent down slightly and swung the coil within an inch of the targets, and BINGO! Solid -4 and -5 ferrous signals for both items using F2 9 only, just as has been mentioned in the previous posts. FE 9 continued to produce a good, non-ferrous signal, which makes sense since F2 9 is a much higher iron bias setting.

So my question becomes, what can explain the signal seeming to become more accurate with “depth” in this situation? A greater distance from the target with the highest iron bias setting, at least on the EQ800, seems to bring the tone/VDI into the correct range on my machine.
 
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gets really old real fast when the 540 'falses" "high" tone on deep iron in hi iron bias.must be a software issue.get this fixed "fast" or suffer the consequences.

(h.h.!)
j.t.
 
Does anyone know if the 540 can be updated?? Via internet?? Thanks Tony

Yes, it can be updated via the micro USB port located in the battery compartment area. When they will provide an update though is anybody’s guess.
 
UPDATE:
I, as a few others have already done, have contacted Minelab support about this iron bias issue on the Vanquish machines. I’m awaiting a callback from ML to find out what they are going to do. A quick fix for them would be to provide a software update that would internally lower the “high” iron bias mode a couple levels from max so that non-ferrous targets with different conductivities stacked on top of each other (without any iron nearby) can continue to sound like a non-ferrous target. In the meantime, setting the Vanquish to “Low” iron bias after power up (540 owners only, unfortunately) is the quickest (no software update needed) fix, although a low iron bias setting will usually result in more iron sounding like a non-ferrous target...in other words more iron will be dug that would have been ignored otherwise.
 
Just a little quick follow-up on this topic after a discussion with a couple of guys who uttere3d a similar comment to one below:


Raphis: said:
Yes, the temporary fix for 540 owners would be to switch the machine to the low iron bias setting upon power up, but the 340,440 owners are up sh** creek...they don’t have low bias on their machines....Hopefully, Minelab come out with a software update on the near future...
The also do not have 5-Tone audio or Bluetooth wireless, or 25 Disc. segments, or 'Backlight' and a few other differences. They are what they are, and I would guess that most consumers who purchase a lower-end model are not interested in finding iron debris or learning how to deal with some iron if using a Low Iron Bias. In short, the V-340 and V-440 are-what-they-are and should satisfy most consumers.

The V-540 and V-540 Pro Pack purchasers are paying for more and thus they are getting more. They simply need to learn what those extra features can and can't do. I happen to really like the V-540.


Raphis: said:
Using low iron bias, however, would equate to more iron dig (getting fooled), which many of our trashy parks here in so cal have high amounts of.
One of my friends said: "I don't want to did more iron. I don't like digging any iron!"

He doesn't have any Minelab model but we were discussing this topic and my Vanquish 540. He uses a White's MXT Pro. I pointed out to him the differences between how I hunt and how he hunts. I reminded him that with my Nokta CoRe and Relic and Simplex + and XP ORX and Minelab Vanquish 540, I have my Discrimination adjusted low so that I hear most Iron Nails and a lot of more conductive ferrous debris. With my Tesoro's, almost all Iron is Discriminated (aka 'Rejected' or Not Heard).

I asked: Where do you set your Discrimination? he replied that it is set close to the 'foil' level to just reject smaller-size foil.

I asked why he didn't reduce his Discrimination lower as I do and he said: Because I don't like to hear nails and Iron.

THERE YOU GO! I told him the Discrimination control is what typically regulated whether you hear most common iron trash or not, and if people do not want to hear most Iron they can simply Discriminate it.

Then I explained Iron Bias to him by using examples of how it can help handle problem ferrous junk, like pesky bottle caps and some rusty tin, or it can be reduced to help provide improved unmasking performance for good targets that are closer to ferrous junk. It is an optional adjustment function for certain tasks.

Remember, too, Iron Bias is only adjustable when worming in Multi-IQ and not a single frequency, if you're using an Equinox. Also, in the Dime-on-Nickel example that was used. I had the -4 and -5 VDI's with a Low Iron Tone in High Iron Bias when my 5X8 DD was swept over the targets at about 1½" and on u to perhaps 6" or more. I didn't measure but it was about paper-dollar distance or more.

The Vanquich pamphlet has very little to say about Iron Bias. If anyone wants to know more, read the Equinox 600/800 User Manual ... Advanced settings on Pg. 52: https://www.minelab.com/__files/f/414877/4901-0249-6 Inst. Manual, EQUINOX 600 800 EN WEB.pdf

Monte
 
UPDATE:
I, as a few others have already done, have contacted Minelab support about this iron bias issue on the Vanquish machines. I’m awaiting a callback from ML to find out what they are going to do. A quick fix for them would be to provide a software update that would internally lower the “high” iron bias mode a couple levels from max so that non-ferrous targets with different conductivities stacked on top of each other (without any iron nearby) can continue to sound like a non-ferrous target. In the meantime, setting the Vanquish to “Low” iron bias after power up (540 owners only, unfortunately) is the quickest (no software update needed) fix, although a low iron bias setting will usually result in more iron sounding like a non-ferrous target...in other words more iron will be dug that would have been ignored otherwise.

What is the best method to get in contact with Minelab about this? I would also like to tell someone about the iron falsing issue.
 
I tried your test and in high iron bias I get a double blip mixed signal. Mid tone followed immediately by iron tone and the VDI is -4. Pretty much the same in all modes with a little variation. When not in all metal mode, I get 16 in one direction and no signal in the other in coin mode, and 16 in both directions in the other modes. In low iron bias and all metal, I get 16-17 from all angles.
What is interesting to me in the field is how I will often get high tones (30s) and end up chasing a bunch of nails. It seems if there are several smaller ferrous objects in a small area, it gets confused and assigns a high tone/VDI. Much higher readings than large iron objects that often produce VDIs in the teens.
 
What is the best method to get in contact with Minelab about this? I would also like to tell someone about the iron falsing issue.

I called Minelab North and South Americas toll free number: 1-888-949-6522.

I spoke with only a representative of Minelab who recorded all my applicable information. This person said he would send/relay this info to a Minelab Tech, and then they would get back with me after they run tests on their end.

So far, I haven’t heard back from anyone, but it’s only been 5 days since I made the call.
 
What is the best method to get in contact with Minelab about this? I would also like to tell someone about the iron falsing issue.

this does need to be addressed!.the detector is supposed to eliminate iron when set to high iron bias.no fun to dig a 8" hole only to find iron, when getting a nice smooth high tone all around the "hit!" you are definitely going to dig it! .maybe an up date as mentioned!

(h.h.!)
j.t.
 
I called Minelab North and South Americas toll free number: 1-888-949-6522.

I spoke with only a representative of Minelab who recorded all my applicable information. This person said he would send/relay this info to a Minelab Tech, and then they would get back with me after they run tests on their end.

So far, I haven’t heard back from anyone, but it’s only been 5 days since I made the call.

effort has been made! ball's in their court!

(h.h.!)
j.t.
 
this does need to be addressed!.the detector is supposed to eliminate iron when set to high iron bias.no fun to dig a 8" hole only to find iron, when getting a nice smooth high tone all around the "hit!" you are definitely going to dig it! .maybe an up date as mentioned!

(h.h.!)
j.t.

Hey JT,

I cut and pasted a paragraph below about Iron Bias from the Equinox 800 manual, which also applies to the (high/low) iron bias on the Vanquish 540, along with the fixed high iron bias on the Vanquish 340/440. Read it carefully. It states that “higher” iron bias settings will “reduce” your frequency of digging iron, because your machine will identify a greater number of questionable iron targets as iron. However, if you lower your iron bias, this will cause more iron targets to be mis-identified as non-ferrous targets...so, you will be digging more iron with a “lower” iron bias setting and “less” iron with a higher iron bias.

The problem and main discussion of this thread is actually that the Vanquish, in the power on default high iron bias mode, is mis-identifying two non-ferrous targets stacked on top of each other as an iron (ferrous) target, which is unacceptable!

...from EQ-800 manuscript:
“In environments with dense iron trash, a higher Iron Bias is recommended in order to mask them. In areas where you do not want to miss any non-ferrous targets amongst iron trash, a lower setting is recommended. This will cause more ferrous targets to be detected and mis-identified as desirable non-ferrous targets.”
 
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