Detectors with true all metal mode
- Thread starter Minero
- Start date
Rudy
Admin
Can you be more specific in what you mean by All Metal?
There are both motion and non-motion forms of All Metal mode.
For example, the White's MXT has true zero discrimination, so if you back off the discrimination completely, it is capable of motion All Metal mode; meaning you need to keep swinging the coil to detect the target. But, if you go into pin point mode –by pulling the trigger– the MXT will go into non-motion All Metal mode; meaning that you don't need to keep swinging the coil and still detect the target.
There are both motion and non-motion forms of All Metal mode.
For example, the White's MXT has true zero discrimination, so if you back off the discrimination completely, it is capable of motion All Metal mode; meaning you need to keep swinging the coil to detect the target. But, if you go into pin point mode –by pulling the trigger– the MXT will go into non-motion All Metal mode; meaning that you don't need to keep swinging the coil and still detect the target.
Rudy
I understand that to have zero discrimination does not mean a true all metal in the sense that you can’t control the threshold, for example the G2+ you have zero discrimination on discrimination mode and it has all metal with threshold.
Maybe I made the wrong question, an all metal with threshold control detector is what I am looking for. A way that I can control the threshold volume to make it a very low hum that a it can pick up a faint signal with a slight change of the threshold.
Hope what I say makes sense, as english is not my first language.
I understand that to have zero discrimination does not mean a true all metal in the sense that you can’t control the threshold, for example the G2+ you have zero discrimination on discrimination mode and it has all metal with threshold.
Maybe I made the wrong question, an all metal with threshold control detector is what I am looking for. A way that I can control the threshold volume to make it a very low hum that a it can pick up a faint signal with a slight change of the threshold.
Hope what I say makes sense, as english is not my first language.
NCtoad
Forum Supporter
Some of the Tesoros will do what you are asking. I have a tesoro vaquero that can be switched to all metal mode and then you can adjust the threshold.
CalReg
Forum Supporter
Tarsacci MDT 8000
Monte
"In Memory of"
Some detectors have a mode called 'All Metal' but it is simply an all-metal accept setting in the motion-based Discriminate mode.Minero: said:
Some will have a selectable Threshold-based All Metal mod, but it might or might not incorporate Auto-Tune to heal deal with drift or subtle changes in ground mineral signal. That means it requires search coil motion, but it doesn't mean it is a motion-based Disc. mode. I am sure this is what you're wondering about. With some makes, you can adjust the SAT orAuto-Tune speed, but with many you can't.
In my personal detector outfit, I have a true, Threshold-based All Metal mode on my:
• 7.8 kHz Fisher F5 with Auto-Tune
• 10 kHz Tesoro Bandido II µMAX, with Manual Re-Tune or Auto-Tune.
• 15 kHz Nokta FORS CoRe
• 19 kHz Nokta FORS Relic
• 12 kHz Nokta / Makro Simplex +
• 6.59 kHz White's XLT
Having the ability to use a NON-Discrimination, true All Metal, Threshold-based search mode is one reason most of my detector outfit is so equipped The only models I own and use that lack a Threshold-based All Metal mode (are Discrimination only) are my Garrett Apex and Minelab Vanquish 540. They work well for what they do, but I grab something else for true All Metal mode searches.
Monte
metaladdict
Elite Member
How about pulse induction detector.
rx8driver
Full Member
Just when i thought i understood!
Rudy
Admin
The MXT will do that.
Is the all metal mode in the Vanquish true all metal mode? Or does Iron Bias still exist?
The AT Max supposedly has true all metal mode, I think.
EDIT: I learned that Iron Bias is ALWAYS present in the Vanquish, even in all metal mode.
The AT Max supposedly has true all metal mode, I think.
EDIT: I learned that Iron Bias is ALWAYS present in the Vanquish, even in all metal mode.
Last edited:
Valley Hunter
Elite Member
Garrett AT Gold has a true all metal with adjustable thresh hold ..
Then in Disc 1 still all meat with the some disc for hot rocks
Then in Disc 1 still all meat with the some disc for hot rocks
Estima8tor
Elite Member
The Teknetics T2se runs at 13 KHz and has an excellent all metal mode with adjustable hum level. I only use it in quiet farm fields when I'm looking for deep relics. The Fisher F75 also has a similar all metal mode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIpmw9Kmz90
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIpmw9Kmz90
Donut
Full Member
If I recall right. The word means ALL Metal.
Monte
"In Memory of"
The Vanquish doesn't have a 'true' Threshold-based All Metal mode other than what is incorporated in the Pinpoint function.
It does have an All Metal ACCEPT or Zero Disc. rejection setting, using the Horseshoe button or manually accepted, but that is not a true All Metal mode. It's still a motion-based Discriminate mode.
Monte
Can you elaborate further? I don't understand why motion-based versus threshold-based detection makes a different in terms of deciding if something has a true all metal mode or not.
Monte
"In Memory of"
Back about 1974/'75 we had our first introduction into a 'true', Threshold-based All Metal mode that ignored the ground mineral signal with the VLF (Very Low Frequency) detectors. The term 'VLF' simply meant they now operated in the 1 kHz to 30 kHz Very Low Frequency range and that allowed the engineers to add circuitry that let us adjust the Ground Balance (sometimes called Ground Cancel, Ground Neutralizing Circuitry, Ground Exclusion Balance and a few other terms) but morphed into the commonly-used term 'All Metal' mode.mh9162013: said:
You selected this 'All Metal' mode to adjust a proper slight audio 'hum' or Threshold-level setting, then manually adjust the Ground Adjust control so that it ignored (or cancelled or rejected or balanced) the ground mineral signal. Thus, with a 'true' All Metal mode you would now ignore the ground signal you balanced to and then the detector would respond to ALL metal targets, both ferrous and non-ferrous. Initially we had models like the very first White's Coinmaster 5 Supreme that was only a 1-mode detector, a ground cancelling, 'Threshold-based' All Metal mode design. Garrett also quickly offered their All Metal detector, and a lot of devoted Relic Hunters loved them because the found everything. However, there didn't provide any Discrimination circuitry to reject unwanted trash, and were All Metal mode only for both ferrous and non-ferrous metals.
Then the manufacturers added a 2nd search mode that provided conventional TR-Discrimination to satisfy Coin & Jewelry Hunters. You could select the 'All Metal Mode' and search for anything and everything, then select the conventional TR-Disc. mode to check a located target and be able to reject the unwanted trash. The problem was that in the All Metal mode you had GB'ed to be able to ignore the ground signal. In the conventional TR-Disc. mode the detector was now reactive to any change in the search coil height from the ground where that mode was tuned or adjusted.
At that time, most of the All Metal mode detectors used either a toggle or push-button selector to manually 're-tune' the All Metal mode to the proper Threshold-level' when there was drift or subtle changes in the ground mineral make-up. Eventually, many makes and models incorporated 'Auto-Tune' circuitry (also referred to as S.A.T. for Self-Adjusting Threshold) that would automatically adjust the 'Threshold' level hum with any changes from ground mineral or rocks or similar subtle changes, and a few provide the option to use Auto-Tune' or to use a 'manual re-tune' method.
If an All Metal mode has a manually adjusted and manually re-tuned 'Threshold' then the search coil can be held stationary over a located target and the increased audio response will stay there .... until you move the coil or manually 're-tune' to restore a 'proper' Threshold audio hum.
However, if the detector is functioning with an 'auto-tune' circuitry, that will 'automatically' restore or return to the Threshold audio if the coil is held motionless over a target. Therefore, the search coil needs to me in motion for the detector operating in All Metal to still be able to respond to a metal target IF it is being used in an 'auto-tune' function. It is still in a true Threshold-based All Metal mode, an that means it is not a Discrimination circuitry mode.
In the late '70s the same engineer, George Payne, was then with Bounty Hunter and not White's when he designed the Red Baron series that was our first Ground-Cancelling AND Discriminating search mode. It was a Discriminate mode that incorporated Ground Cancelling, but in order for the search coil to be swept over the ground and Discriminate trash as well as Discriminate (Reject) the ground signal, the search coil had to be swept very quickly to process out the Trash signal and still handle the ground mineral condition.
That now meant a Discrimination circuitry could work to reject the ground signal as well as some trash signals, but in order for it to function properly, get a combined good/bad target signal, process out the bad signal or ground signal but still pass along the good-target signal, the search coil had to be swept very briskly. Thus, it became known as a 'motion-based' Discriminate mode.
In '82 Fisher brought out their 1260X with a slow-motion based Disc. circuitry, and in mid-'83 Tesoro introduced their Inca which was also a slow-motion processing design. No need to sweep fast, but the search coils had to be in slow-sweep motion for the 'motion-based' or motion-required' Discriminate mode.
Therefore:
► We have a motion-based requirement for a 'true' Threshold-based All Metal mode to work well, if it is incorporating an Auto-Tune circuitry. It is still a Non-Discrimination circuitry that can respond to ALL metals, both ferrous and non-ferrous, and allow the operator to cancel-out or Ground Balance to the existing conditions.
► We also have Discrimination circuitry detectors that require search coil motion in order for them to ignore ground signal, reject or Discriminate unwanted trash, but are now motion-based due to circuitry design requirements.
→ MOST of the 'true' All Metal mode detectors allow for a proper 'Threshold' audio adjustment. Many motion-based Discriminating detectors are designed as "silent-search" and operate without an audible Threshold-level 'hum.' But some Discriminators do provide a 'threshold' adjustment in their Disc. mode.
→→ The 'Threshold' adjustment is a personal-use design, but the two types of detector 'modes' are unchanged:
• A Non-Discriminating, true, Threshold-based All Metal mode .... that might require coil motion IF it is using auto-tune.
• A Discrimination mode, that might allow a Threshold adjustment, and requires some level of search coil motion in order to properly operate and handle ground signals as well as good and bad target signals.
→→→ And finally I'll address the "All Metal" concept:
• A conventional, non-Discriminating All Metal mode detector ignores the ground signal and will respond to ALL metal targets be them ferrous or non-ferrous.
• Some Discrimination mode models might provide a Disc. setting that could be called '0' or Zero or even 'All Metal' and that is simply their designed lowest-end Disc. setting that is not suppose to be rejecting anything. The concept is that at the proper Zero setting, they will respond to all ferrous and all non-ferrous targets. Many Discriminators do a very good job at their lowest, non-rejection Discriminate settings, but some circuitry designs still have some some issues. They might intend to respond to All Metals but they might still have a little bit of Discrimination incorporated and come close, but don't work perfectly.
*** In the end you have to learn and know each of the detector models you use. Know what they can do and what they can't. For example, in my Detector Outfit, I have 3 Garrett Apex models. They all offer a 'ZERO' Discriminate mode that will then find both ferrous and non-ferrous targets. But the detector doesn't offer a 'true,' Threshold-based All Metal search mode. Nor does my Minelab Vanquish 540. The Apex and V-540 DO provide a momentary All Metal 'Pinpoint' function, but that's it.
My Fisher F5 and Nokta FORS CoRe and FORS Relic DO offer both a conventional Threshold-based All Metal mode, without any Discrimination circuitry, but the F5 circuitry relies on auto-tune and therefore has a motion-based All Metal mode requirement.
All three of these models ALSO offer Discriminate modes AND the ability to adjust to 'Zero' Discrimination which means they can also be used at that low Disc. setting to find ALL ferrous and non-ferrous targets. And to work properly, they require a motion-based sweep to accept all targets and factor out the ground mineral signal.
I can use any of these three models to search for iron or for non-iron in either an All Metal mode or a motion-based Discriminate mode, simply because they provide me the mode-choice options and functional adjustment settings.
Sorry this is long but I hope it helps explain some of the differences between a true All Metal mode and a motion-based Discriminate mode.
Monte
Wow Monte really appreciate your time and effort for us that are starting metal detecting. Had an idea, but now i just know that I know nothing, I am in diapers. But are in a steep learning curve with great and knowledged people like you.
Thank you
Adrián
Thank you
Adrián
graybeard
Elite Member
Even though most detectors list as having all metal. Most are discriminating out lots of metal. If you dig everything the detector gives a sound for, you will miss a lot of things. The detector hitting everything in the ground is wishful thinking.
