An old story that bears repeating :

Tom_in_CA

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This was on a forum thread many years ago. But it bears repeating. Because it reveals a wealth of information on the entire psychology regarding legalities in our hobby.

A fellow from the midwest states got into detecting. Joined a club. Made friends with other hobbyists in his area. Learned all he could from his mentors . And one of the places in his part of the state, that was a popular go-to spot for local md'rs, was a particular large reservoir. Like a CCC created reservoir that had boating, fishing, swimming, camping, etc.... And always drew big crowds during the summer on the beaches there. So the md'rs in this guy's area often plied their luck on the swim beaches there.

One day, after a busy 3 day holiday weekend, the md'r was there on an early Monday morning , to ply his luck. Out of the corner of his eye, he sees a truck pull into the parking lot. But he pays it no mind. Then he sees that someone has gotten out of the truck, and is heading his way. He realizes it's a ranger. And sure enough, the ranger is marching out to the beach in his direction.

The ranger tells him: "You can't be doing that here". To which the md'r meekly asks "What's up ? Why is that ?". To which the ranger said "Because it's a state park".

The md'r .... not wanting any hassles, and wanting to be respectful of authority, turned off his machine, apologized, and left.

The md'r then started the long drive back home. But this really began to bug him. Because he and his buddies had detected this beach for YEARS. And ... no one had ever said anything to them. So he began to wonder if this ranger was mistaken.

He called his buddies and reported what happened. This was news to them too. None of them had ever had any issues there. Nor did any of them know of any such rule.

The fellow also got a hold of all the state park's laws, rules, codes, etc.... and could find NOTHING that said "no md'ing". So he began to suspect that this ranger was mistaken.

*HOWEVER*, in his research on the subject (law/rules for state parks in his state), he *did* see some verbiage that *might* apply. Namely the boiler plate cultural heritage wording. It all depended on how someone defines "artifact". So he studied this, and found out that it's typically defined as an object 50 yrs. old or older. But as of the time of this booting, that reservoir was JUST BARELY THEN 50 yrs. old. Thus .... it didn't seem that THIS could be what the ranger was basing the scram on. Eh ?

Or other things that *could* apply. Like "harvest and remove" language. (After all, we "remove" things, eh ?). But the md'r realized that this is a far stretch from the intent of such language. And that verbiage like that was so that no numbskull takes the park benches, or starts commercially harvesting the sand, etc.... Hence that shouldn't apply, eh ?

Or perhaps "alter and deface" language. Because we "dig" after all, right ? But the md'r could not conceive how this would apply to the beach sand. Since, after all, kids make sand castles, eh ? And besides, we cover our holes when we're done. Eh ?

In the course of his research on the subject, he happen-chanced to learn that the neighboring state's state park dept. had EXPRESS ALLOWANCE (albeit on sandy beaches only, or with a permit, or.... whatever). And the md'r thought: THIS IS WHAT OUR STATE NEEDS. Because then it would not be left up to the arbitrary whims and mood of each passing ranger. An express allowance is better than being silent on the subject, eh ?

But the md'r didn't want any hassles. So he decided to make it his mission, and get this ironed out. So he wrote a nice letter to the state park's dept. He researched who it was, in state capitol hierarchy of park personnel, that would be the top-most decision maker. He puts the letter of club letterhead, and was to the effect of:

Dear so & so : On such & such date, and such & such lake beach, I was informed by ranger mr. so & so, that I could not enjoy my hobby of metal detecting. This letter is to object and get this clarified. I have searched through any and all rules, laws, codes of park use, and nothing there says "no metal detectors". Thus I believe that this ranger is mistaken.

If, however, he was relying on the cultural heritage language, then be aware that this park is scarcely now 50 yrs. old. Thus this language would not apply. We are only looking for loose change, modern drops, etc....

If the ranger was thinking "holes", be aware that we leave no trace of our digs, thus, this too wouldn't apply. If the ranger was thinking "harvest" or "remove" wording , be aware that this was never meant to apply to fumble fingers items. And ... if anything, we remove trash, sharp objects, and help people find their items. So ... if anything, we bring positive merit. Thus harvest /remove would not apply.

Lastly, please notice that our neighboring state of such & such, has express allowance, per this chapter and verses in their language. I would very much like to suggest that our state also consider adopting such language. So that it's not left to the arbitrary mood or interpretation of each ranger.

He had it signed by all the members of his club, and mailed it to state capitol.

Weeks went by, and he still had no reply. So he called, and gets a voicemail. Left a nice polite message to the effect that he had sent a letter, and was wondering if they would please check that, get this clarified, etc..

But still no reply :(

One day, after about a month, he decided to go detecting. He chose a particular park or campground, that .... like the lake, had always ever simply been one of the "go-to" spots, that he and his buddies went to. But after a little while, a ranger came up to tell him to stop. The md'r is thinking "Not again ??" However THIS time , the md'r was well-versed and fully researched on the matter. So THIS time , he was not going to tuck his tail under and leave, like he had done before.

He politely tells the ranger : " Nope, sorry, there's no rule that forbids md'ing. Unless you can show me where it says that, I'm going to have to disagree with you"

The ranger says to him "Buddy, don't shoot, I'm only the messenger". And the ranger pulls a paper out of his pocket, unfolds it, and shows it to the him. It was a fax, that had apparently gone out to all the various park offices throughout the state. To be passed out to the rank & file rangers at each park. And it was a "B.O.L" Eg.: Be on the lookout for md'rs, as this is not allowed, blah blah. And it referenced language about cultural heritage, removing/taking, digging, etc.... as the rationale.

And then he glanced down to the bottom of this department BOL memo paper. And ... guess who it was signed by ?? THE VERY GUY HE'D BEEN PETITIONING to get this issue clarified. He realized, at that moment, that he had only made things worse. He realized in a flash that he should just have left good enough alone. And avoided *just* that one beach, or *just* that one ranger, etc.. Odds are, it was probably a fluke. But no .... now he had single-handedly made his entire state parks off-limits :(

He passed the paper back to the ranger, turned off his machine, and went home. His buddies got wind of what had happened, and he uhhh, was sort of on-the-outs with them. Ie.: seen as a trouble maker.

So there is a true story, of how these balls often get rolling.
 
Sad story....I sometimes worry about the future of our hobby but try to enjoy every minute I can get. I'm originally from SoCal but have lived in Texas last 10 years. I remember looking into rules for State Parks in Cali and some actually said metal detecting allowed but no digging. So you were really left to fresh drops that were maybe barely covered by the grass that was hand retrievable. There is a city not far from me here in Texas that you can metal detect the city parks but need a permit. Even the lakes out here you need a permit too and are not supposed to keep anything worth 25 dollars or more and can only detect in designated areas. Most of the lakes here are run by Army Corps of Engineers.

Just like my hunting buddies say around here. Better to ask for forgiveness than permission....aint it the truth!!

GL & HH
Brian


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
..... I remember looking into rules for State Parks in Cali and some actually said metal detecting allowed but no digging. ....

I remember when the internet was fairly young (mid to late 1990s) and there was only a couple of forums. I logged on to one, and was glancing down the list of topics.

Someone had a post title to the effect of : "Coming to So. CA on business trip. Can I detect the beach ?" And in the text of his post, he said the name of the So. CA beach he was going to be next to. It was a state administered beach (as 90% of CA coastline tends to be state beaches, with a smattering of some city and fed.).

I got ready to reply to the fellow that State of CA beaches are fair game. However, I noticed that someone else had already answered him. So I clicked to see the other person's reply. And was shocked at his answer. The other fellow had merely gone to a book called "Treasure Laws of the United States" By author R.W. Doc Grim . Which had some dire things, like you allude to. Eg.: can't find anything old, can't dig, have to turn in all valuables, inquire at each kiosk you come to, blah blah blah.

And I'm thinking : Since when ?? You can detect state of CA beaches here till you're blue in the face! We dig all the time. We find old coins all the time. We never "inquire at each kiosk". So this was downright silly-ness.

Yet.... Bless that author's little heart. Guess how he got his information for his book ? He merely sent out 50 xeroxed letters to each state's headquarters of their park's dept, asking them: "What are the laws regarding use of metal detectors in your parks?" And then merely put the 50 answers in his book. Genius idea, eh ? :roll: After all, who-better to ask, than the state's themselves !

And when that book made the rounds in the mid 1980s, a lot of old-timers were left scratching their heads saying "since when?" It was clearly a case of a "pressing issue" gettied bandied around, desk to desk, till finally it lands on the desk of an archie. And ... presto, you get the "safe" answer. When reality is 360 degrees different. Sometimes I think we md'rs can be our own worst enemies.
 
I stay well clear of Pennsylvania state parks and game lands! I have heard horror stories that if you are caught breaking the law on those grounds, they can fine you AND seize your equipment. Some say they even have the right to seize the vehicle you drove there (not sure I believe that) but it does not seem worth the risk.
 
I find a strange pleasure in these kinds of topics...I think it has to do with attempting to go through Life unnoticed, unbothered, and unencumbered by the whimsical legalities imposed by Civilizations...Its a skill best honed in field at an early age, lessons learned and built upon...Having a good sense of awareness and visuals and timing...Its all about Timing...

A guy shouldnt have to ask permission, unless its obviously a private yard or estate or whatnot...even then, asking permission, it is all about sense and visuals and Timing...One guy will get a Yes and the other a No...skills involved..
 
I stay well clear of Pennsylvania state parks and game lands! I have heard horror stories that if you are caught breaking the law on those grounds, they can fine you AND seize your equipment. Some say they even have the right to seize the vehicle you drove there (not sure I believe that) but it does not seem worth the risk.

Remmy, ... and do you know "how you heard" of horror stories such as this ? Here's why: Because of reading posts, such as yours, like this. Eg.: The old song & dance of : "They can confiscate your car, your detector, your children, your house, jail you, fine you, etc..." Right ? All for merely having a detector in your trunk. Right ? Thus since you & I read it on a thread, it must be a true imminent threat. Right ?

But.... not saying to "throw caution to the wind". Not saying to detect in front of bored archies at archie conventions. But .... on the other hand .... seriously now ... have you ever heard of such an incident ? I'll bet not. Anytime someone throws out these fears or supposed horror stories, you'll notice that examples are NEVER forthcoming.

Or.... if they can show some example, it's invariably some obnoxious stupid guy who can't take a warning. Or could have easily known better. Or someone night-sneaking an obvious historic sensitive monument. Etc....
 
I find a strange pleasure in these kinds of topics...I think it has to do with attempting to go through Life unnoticed, unbothered, and unencumbered by the whimsical legalities imposed by Civilizations...Its a skill best honed in field at an early age, lessons learned and built upon...Having a good sense of awareness and visuals and timing...Its all about Timing...

A guy shouldnt have to ask permission, unless its obviously a private yard or estate or whatnot...even then, asking permission, it is all about sense and visuals and Timing...One guy will get a Yes and the other a No...skills involved..

Puppy, your creative writing wit is always a pleasure to read. Yes.... the way someone conducts themselves, is 99.99% of how things actually play themselves out.

The moment someone displays an aura of "oh no, does he see me ?" persona, is the moment that some passerby busy-body authority is going to ask himself "gee, what's he doing ?" :roll: Versus if/when you "act like you own the place", then ... no one pays you a 2nd mind.

Of course this won't work in/on obvious historic monuments. But ... for middle of forests, or normal city park lawns, the QUICKEST way to raise questions or concerns about any activity you're doing, is to start acting evasively , skittishly, worried, etc......... And the fastest way to plant this idea in newbies minds (that they "might be doing something wrong", thus "should look left & right to see if anyone is watching") is to make posts such as this. It merely feeds on itself. It merely feeds the "sky is falling" and "everyone hates us" and "must grovel" attitude.

On the contrary. Act like you own the place, and .... odds are ... no one ever cared a diddly squat. After all, didn't your dad loose his boyscout ring there when he was a kid ?
 
What are your references for this story? Another forum? Hearsay? Who? When? And where?

My "references for this story" ? It was exactly as said . The md'r came on a forum, made a post, reporting that chain of events. Lamenting what had happened. It was probably 10+ yrs. ago. T'net as I recall. So my odds of finding that exact post, are slim. I am just retelling what he had reported.

But ... from the tone of your post, I take it you don't believe this happened ? Or that these type things can't or aren't the genesis of some of the rules against us ?
 
Sorry Tom, I didnt mean to have a "tone". Just skeptical. And since it was a story, this persons perception of the event likely varies from what actually occured. I highly doubt that writing a letter to request clarification of a law or lack there of would result in a special request being sent out to stop all metal detecting activity. Also it would be nice to at least know the state in which this happened, so i make sure never to go there.
 
I had something similar happen to me today.


I was detecting a park, in an area that sometimes is used by football teams. Not a football field, no goalposts, etc...just a large flat area.


Across the field there were some people on the ACTUAL football field practicing baseball (go figure), and after digging a few plugs (carefully of course), one of the coaches came over and asked what we were doing. I told him, and he said "I don't want to see holes all over my football field". I told him we don't dig holes, we dig plugs and replace them, but also asked what he considered his field. He told us, and we moved along to another park. (Good thing too, as my friend found a little figure we haven't identified yet) We figured it's not worth the hassle, and we can alway come back when he and his team isn't around.
 
Here's something similar, that happened to a personal friend of mine, at a location within 50-ish miles of me :

There was a certain state campground in the Santa Cruz mountains. Only dates to the 1930s or so. Thus .... not super old. But old enough that the guys in the Santa Cruz area would often go there to angle for silver. They had never had any problems. One day, however, he got booted. Strangely by a ranger he could distinctly recall having seen in the past w/o issue. He didn't argue with the fellow, and .... called it a day.

Then a few days later my friend was at the local metal detector dealer's house, shooting the breeze. In walked a customer. So the 3 of them are all now shop-talking about metal detecting. This fellow who had just arrived, was apparently a newbie, who had just purchased a machine a week or so earlier. And was now back to buy another accessory.

The newbie made an off-hand comment that caught my friend off guard : He says something "Gee it's a shame they don't allow detecting in such & such campground". This was the place where my friend had JUST been booted a few days earlier.

So.... without saying anything about his own booting, he probed the newbie for more information. Eg.: "Who told you it's not allowed there ? Where'd you get that information ?". The newbie explained that he had gone there and asked. And that ... at first ... the person at the kiosk just gave a blank look, and didn't know the answer. But gets on the phone, made a call or two to some superiors elsewhere. Comes back to the window and tells the guy "no".

My friend probed the fellow further, to find out the exact date this encounter had happened. Turned out it had happened the day before his own scram. Thus my friend put 2 + 2 together. And .... figured that with the question "fresh in that rangers mind", then ... Presto: Whenever he now sees another md'r, he'll start booting others.
 
I guess i just dont understand what we should be taking from these stories. Whats the principal of the story?
 
The proper response to any authority figure asking what your looking for is my wedding band, and if you want to take me to jail then I owe you one, because that means i dont have to go home and tell my wife.
 
... Whats the principal of the story?

That we md'rs shouldn't swat hornet's nests. If there is ever any worry or wonder on whether you can or can't detect, you look up laws/rules for yourself. No need to ask any authority figure "Can I ?"
 
That we md'rs shouldn't swat hornet's nests. If there is ever any worry or wonder on whether you can or can't detect, you look up laws/rules for yourself. No need to ask any authority figure "Can I ?"

Is that not exactly what the guy did from your story? I agree and i didnt percieve either of your storys as someone swatting a hornets nest.
 
Is that not exactly what the guy did from your story? .....

Yes. He researched it, found no laws forbidding md'ing. Other than some *possible* grey area catch-all stuff. And at that point, he should have stopped. And just avoided that single ranger, or that single beach. But no. His mistake was thinking he somehow had to "over-turn that scram". By going higher up the chains "seeking clarifications". At that point, is when he started swatting hornet's nests.
 
Gotcha, but do you really think he is the sole reason detecting was banned? The letter was after the fact there was a ranger out there stopping people from detecting so obviously the order came down before he wrote the letter. And going up the chain of authority is exactly what you do when you know you are not in the wrong. Albeit, in the case of metal detecting, its not that important and avoiding confrontation is almost always the best course of action. What do you think scubas take of this would be? :D
 
Gotcha, but do you really think he is the sole reason detecting was banned? The letter was after the fact there was a ranger out there stopping people from detecting so obviously the order came down before he wrote the letter. And going up the chain of authority is exactly what you do when you know you are not in the wrong. Albeit, in the case of metal detecting, its not that important and avoiding confrontation is almost always the best course of action. What do you think scubas take of this would be? :D

Well .... I do not construe any person's lone "scram", to constitute a law or rule, that must-now-be fought, over-turned, clarified, etc....

I will give an example in the next post :
 
There is a certain park, in a certain city, here in CA, that's about 1.5 hrs. from me. So whenever I'm passing through that part of the state, I often time stop to hit it. It's given up scores of nice barbers, etc.... over the years to friends and I .

However, about 15 yrs. ago, when passing through the area, a buddy and I got shut down by a lady cop. As it turns out, we were just about to wrap it up for the day anyhow. So we just gave her lip service and left.

A few months later, I started corresponding with a hunter in that city, via a forum post. We saw that we weren't that far from each other, so we started comparing notes on detecting we'd done in each other's area.

I recalled the booting from the park in his city, so I told him what happened. He was surprised by this, because he hits that park all the time. And no one has ever said anything to him. And he has an inlaw who sits on the city counsel, who confirmed there's no muni. law or rule forbidding detectors. No doubt the lady cop probably just had images of holes in turf, blah blah.

My forum penpal told me he was "going to get to the bottom of this", and use his in-laws connection in city hall, to confirm that ... yes .... it's ok to hunt the park. But I discouraged him from doing that. Afraid that it might just open up a can of worms.

He agreed and didn't pursue it. But ... you can bet ... that the next time he went to that park, he was probably a bit skittish now. But .... nothing ever happened. About a year later, I was passing through the area and wanted to hit the park again. But ... was understandably keeping a keen eye out. Nothing ever happened. Cop cars even pass by, and just keep going. Eventually I dropped my guard, and didn't even think about it.

That was ~15 yrs ago. And .... to this day ... you can hunt to your heart's content there.

This is an example of how an isolated "scram" could simply be a fluke. Perhaps that cop got a call from a busy-body who assumed we were going to leave holes ? Perhaps she was just having a bad hair day ? Who knows ?
 
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