Yes. If what you keep telling us is true, then “Yes” metal detecting should pretty much be universally banned by now.....
But this is making an assumption that people are showing up in droves in every city, grovelling at desks swatting hornet's nests. I've never said that. If that premise of the syllogism were true, then yes, the rest of your musings would be true. But no one ever said that it's happening in droves.
All I'm saying is that
when it DOES happen, THEN there's the risk of laws or permits to "address this pressing issue".
And am also saying that it might not result in codified laws or permits, but can result in whimsical arbitrary "no's", that then become a sort of un-written policy, from then-on-out, by whomever the individual was you talked to. Because then, when he sees others md'ing, he'll remember the earlier inquiry and think "Aha ! there's one of
THEM" and start booting others. (I've seen that happen).
Because remember: They can indeed scram us on periphery grey-area language (alter, deface, remove, etc....). And sometimes the GENESIS of what gets that ball-rolling in their mind, is NOT the happen-chance passing an md'r in the park. Instead, it's when it's "on his desk for a decision", that makes him think "Gee, do I allow this, or not ?"
......And I’m saying (as I have done repeatedly) that there’s no real way to verify this....
I have not denied this. That's why I repeatedly say "I have a sneaking suspicion of ...", etc.... And by the same token, you too don't know if my musings are correct (and/or the degree-to-which they come into play). And I *CAN* cite story after story of where my musings are EXACTLY what the history is. I was there, watching all this un-ravel, back in the 1970s, 80s, and '90s. In clubs, as club prez. for awhile, etc.... and saw this happen in local circumstances. And it made me wonder "Gee, is this possibly the origins elsewhere too ?
And on bigger scales of bigger entities ?"
And the more I looked into it, I began to see that , yes it often-time was !
..... .I mean, we both know that there are people here who say it’s perfectly fine to trespass and removed found items if…you know…if the property is maybe isolated, or has been used by the public for some period of time....
Sure, there's "locker-room talk" on the forums here. Granted. But whether or not that "leads to new/more laws" : I am perplexed by this notion. Because in the case of someone who's ... uh .... breaking existing laws elsewhere, since when does that make someone else, in an entirely different area, think "I know, let's ban md'ing !".
For example: If fishing were not allowed in a certain lake. But some micreants simply snuck around, and did it anyhow. Ok, no one disputes that they're 'breaking a law at this one certain lake'. But does that cause the lake down the road to now think "I know, let's ban fishing at our lake, since we know of some yahoos who fish at the off-limits lake over there" . I simply do not see that happening.
Nor do I envision any desk-jockies out there reading geeky metal detecting forums, thinking "Gee, I wonder what md'rs think ?". I highly doubt any of them are reading md'ing forums. Just like you are not reading crochet forums, to catch up on the latest needle-work design gossip. So too does the average person not give 2-hoots to other people's hobby (unless it's on his desk for "princely attention and say-so").
....Or maybe detecting in a park after hours.....
The thing that person hunting at night would be "doing wrong" is NOT the md'ing. It's the being there at night. Because if we're talking about places with no-rule-forbidding, then the error is not "md'ing without someone's permission", but rather, disobeying the curfew. I mean, let's say that the person who was in the park after hours was shooting hoops or swinging on the swing set. Then by your logic: They make a "no swinging" and "no basketball" rule afterwards ? NO ! they simply scram him for being in the park after hours. NOT the md'ing, or the swinging, or the hoops. See ?
. ... Let's be honest, if a police officer or park ranger kicks someone out of a park who was simply passing through after hours, versus someone who was metal detecting (both harmless both relatively innocuous), who do you think the office or ranger is going to remember ? ....
Good point. I do have to admit that I acknowledge, all the time, that we're in an "odd-ball hobby" with connotations. Ok, score one for flies-only. Here's all I can say to that : Do you have an example of this sort-of-thing being a genesis for a blanket rule or permit ? I don't. Do you ? And when/if it's cops that scram someone for (gasp) being a park after hours, I really think that in-today's-world, they have bigger fish to fry. Oh sure, they'll scram you, but .... do you really think they show up to the next city council meeting , or trot over the park's dept, and suggest a proposed rule ? No. Me thinks they're scramming persons in the park for being there after hours, not the md'ing, period.
.... Yet, oddly, you seem to think that those attitudes and behaviors play no role in permits or bans being implemented...
Anything's possible. Could something remote like that be a genesis ? Sure. But guess what ? Trotting over to city halls asking "Can I ?" each time in each city, does NOT solve this. The only thing grovelling does, is further accelerate the "no's". So while I can't discount or disprove what you're saying, I'm just saying that "permission asking" and "permits" is not the solution to abate those genesis that you speak of. See ?
..... . I do agree that the best way to start is certainly in the manner you’ve just described. ......
Well then we're actually on the same page, for a large part of this discussion
............. So asking permission does result in permits and/or bans? Honestly, I can’t keep track of which side you’re on......
Maybe the word "does" is too strong. Because it's entirely possible someone gets a "no" or a "yes", and whatever desk jockey that is simply forgets the entire matter. I'll grant that ! But the word can be "might" (with strong emphasis). Why ? Because I've seen it happen over and over, with this genesis.
Also, in this question, you haven't included "policy". Where perhaps nothing got codified, but yet the mere "matter on their plate" makes them start to take notice, and scram people via the grey-area-minutia. Ie.: Not a "specific express disallowance", but scrams none-the-less, that you do NOT want to argue with them over . Because, sure, let's be honest, we "dig". And no amount of permission asking solves this dilemma. It only makes it worse
............. Wait...you're going to give me numerous examples of a behavior (asking) resulting in an outcome (permit/ban) that you’ve admitted is rare? ....
YES ! And it's not "counterituitive". Here's why : So that we can collectively, as a community of hobbyists :
KEEP IT RARE !
............. That is to say, you "infer" that someone asking for permission resulted in either a permitting system or an outright ban being implemented, but you have no actual, verifiable proof.
Huh ? What are you talking about ? I have LOTS of "actual verifiable proof". Where have you been ? I have example after example where everything was just fine, till people (bless their little hearts) went in asking "Can I ?" type-questions. Which led to either verbal 'no's' (policies), or outright codified rules, and/or permits.
Do you want me to start listing them ?