Flies only, I've studied our recent volleys and I think I've got it figured out :
Here's the things we agree on:
1) that a photographer trespasses to take a pix
2) that the md'r trespasses to metal detect.
3) Hence both are in-the-wrong.
Yep, we agree.
4) But the photographer is not called out on it. We mutually agree it's in the "no one cares" category of life. Right ? Why ? Because his actions are harmless.
Neither of them would be "called out on it yet" since their actions are the same...they both have done nothing more than trespass.
But where we diverge is on the question of "Can the md'rs actions be of-the-caliber that they are not harmless and thus ignored ?" And we have both concluded that , yes, technically ... md'ing is stealing .
If it’s done on private property without permission. I do not view all metal detecting as “technically stealing” and do not believe that the Law sees it that way either.
Why that doesn't likewise therefore apply to public land, is ... yes ... another thread that would be an interesting thread. Because it's a law every single one of us breaks.
I cannot comment on the validity of this statement because I really have no idea about all of the laws pertaining to metal detecting on public lands. I will say this, however…and understand that this is merely my opinion on the subject… if metal detecting IS allowed on any given piece of public property, then no matter the wording in the allowable use of that piece of property (cannot remove, harvest, take, etc.) they would not apply because it is inherently understood that a detectorist will be removing objects. You cannot say something is both legal and illegal at the same time. That is not to say that there cannot be further stipulations applying to what can and cannot be removed. But if I am told it is legal for me to metal detect on a given piece of public property, with no additional stipulations (not including the stuff you keep bring up…cannot harvest, remove, take, etc,etc, etc…those words can still be in the regulation), then I cannot be charged with stealing if I remove the objects I find, since it’s understood and is common knowledge that a detectorist will remove the objects that they have found. In other words, you cannot say it is OK to detect, knowing that in doing so I will be removing objects I find, but then also say “but you cannot remove objects that you find”. If it is allowed, then you can remove obects, even if the regulation says you cannot remove, harvest, take, etc. I hope I’m being clear on what I’m trying to say, but I’m probably not, sorry.
Have I summed it up ok so far ?
Not quite. The "reason" for the trespass is irrelevant. The detectorist is not [necessarily] in trouble for using a metal detector (other than the trespass itself, of which the photographer is equally guilty). It's the fact that he removed an object from private property without permission that gets him (or her) in more trouble.
If so, I think I've pinpointed the reason for the on-going difference of stances : I think it's boiling down to the definition of "trespassing". In-so-far as it concerns the mental images conveyed for our question .
No. The trespass is irrelevant to this discussion. We agree that both parties are equally guilty of this crime. Let the trespass go…it’s a non-issue. It’s the removal of private property that gets the detectorist into additional trouble. That’s all this is about at this point in the discussion…the removal of an object from private property without permission.
The type places I'm envisioning, is the corner weed strewn lot with shopping carts and the short-cut trail across it. Or the field at the end of the suburbs where everyone walks their dogs and kids ride their BMX bikes at .
Does “the field at the end of the suburbs where everyone walks their dogs and kids ride their BMX bikes at.” even still exist in this current era of “lawsuits for the silliest of reason”? Sadly, I doubt that there are too many of these “fields” still around. This is not so much a comment on the notion of detecting, or stealing, or even trespassing, so much as it is a statement about that times in which we now all live….times where you can be sued by your vegan neighbor for BBQing in your own backyard.
And places where .... like the photographer example, no one would "bat an eye" about "stepping off the sidewalk".
It would be my guess that there are virtually no places like this left in this Country. I think you would be hard pressed to find a large piece of private property, in this day and age, that is not posted with “No Trespassing” signs. And certainly if someone would happen to “stumble” upon an old house or foundation while out on an unposted piece of land, I think it would be a safe assumption to make that “you” are most likely on a piece of private property. And while you may “feel” that it’s abandoned and safe to metal detect…cuz no one would “bat an eye” about you being there…you would be stealing if you removed any objects. “You” don’t get to decide which private property is free for you to detect and remove items from, and which ones you cannot detect and remove objects…they’re all private property.
If you were envisioning people's front yards type of thing, Then we'd be in agreement. I have always understood this discussion to be the type places where it's a non-issue . Ie.: To simply be walking there. As in the case of the man walking his dog or taking pictures.
But again, there’s a big difference between walking your dog on a piece of property, and removing objects from that same piece of land. Both are trespassing, yes, we agree on that. But taking something off of the property is stealing.
Apparently not…but this time at least we agreed on close to 50% of the stuff in your post.
And if so, can we start a separate thread about whether-or-not md'rs are violating "harvest and remove" laws on public land ?
Sweet...I am giddy with excitement.
Not that that will stop either of us (or any other md'rs) from doing it. But none-the-less it does shed interesting light on the definition of md'ing.
It won’t shed any light on the definition of metal detecting so much as it will shed a light on what we detectorist know, or do not know, about the laws governing our hobby.